#dev 2018-01-08

2018-01-08 UTC
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grantcodes New experiment: Twitter user to RSS feed to microsub subscription. And it actually seems to work passably well
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[miklb] sounds like I need to start looking closer at Together
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aaronpk wow nice
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (-132) "/* Itching */" (view diff)
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@_johlym Added webmention support to the blog this evening and opened comments on posts for discussion on [http://johnathan.org](//johnathan.org] (twitter.com/_/status/950177986602467334)
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@_johlym I’ve added webmention support to http://johnathan.org this evening. A good wrap up to the weekend. https://Johnathan.org (twitter.com/_/status/950185990181801989)
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[kevinmarks] I added cassis to Fritter so I could use the auto_link, but now I need to change the scary regex to accept dat: urls (which don't have domains) and I am not sure how.
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curve25519 has a microformats parser statically compiled into his webserver heh
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mblaney !tell AngeloGladding thanks I fixed the problem with the dialog. It's looking for a link header on your home page with rel="webaction".
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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AngeloGladding hey mblaney
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Loqi AngeloGladding: mblaney left you a message 1 minute ago: thanks I fixed the problem with the dialog. It's looking for a link header on your home page with rel="webaction".
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AngeloGladding is that specified somewhere?
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mblaney hi AngeloGladding
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mblaney what is a webaction handler?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "webaction handler" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "webaction handler is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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mblaney webaction handler is a url that returns the json config you want to use for your own webactions.
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /webaction_handler (+123) "prompted by mblaney and dfn added by mblaney" (view diff)
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mblaney AngeloGladding: I'm not sure if it's the sort of thing you were looking for the other day, but mine currently is: https://unicyclic.com/php/webaction.php?username=mal&page=reader
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AngeloGladding interesting
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AngeloGladding i began with a "draft" scoped micropub for a logged in user and just added a simple web+action://(reply|like|...) scheme
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cweiske as in http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm ?
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Loqi [Christian Weiske] web+action:*
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AngeloGladding the dilemma -- kind of want to allow the user to browse the open web and use engagement buttons without the host site having any knowledge of you
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mblaney yes that is the dilemma :-)
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AngeloGladding cweiske yes -- i'm just using a straight web+action:// url without the fallback javascript
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AngeloGladding many solutions, nothing seems quite right
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AngeloGladding mblaney has a follow in his config and aaronpk seems to have implemented follow using microsub
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AngeloGladding i think i'm just going to proceed with the simplest case for now
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mblaney cweiske++ I hadn't seen your solution before.
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Loqi cweiske has 24 karma in this channel (123 overall)
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mblaney my way around the indie-config problem was to explicitly request the config via the handler, but it returns the same information.
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mblaney If the config is cached in localStorage then you don't need to provide your url every time you visit a page.
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AngeloGladding cweiske says "the configuration should only be returned for web+action:js-config"
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AngeloGladding i'm not sure i understand what all the config is about
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cweiske indie-config as specified currently only works with javascript
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AngeloGladding and exists to allow for fallback to a silo, correct?
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cweiske yes
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cweiske but if you want something that works without javascript, you need "real" urls
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cweiske which I proposed as e.g. "web+action:reply?url=http%3A%2F%2Fexample.org%2Ffoo"
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AngeloGladding right
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AngeloGladding and that's why i'm using for exactly that reason
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AngeloGladding no need for javascript
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cweiske but if you want feature detection (if your browser/website supports indieweb replies at all), you need the javascript
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cweiske so for the javascript iframe thingy, you could open "web+action:js-config"
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AngeloGladding if i POSSE to twitter/FB can't i add additional buttons to reply there?
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cweiske so the web+action protocol would serve 2 uses: reply action initiation, and support status info
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AngeloGladding what do you mean by "support status info"?
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cweiske checking if the browser supports indie replies
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cweiske so that you can replace the "reply on twitter" button with the "reply on your website" button
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AngeloGladding yeah i see that and it's hugely important for POSSE scenarios
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AngeloGladding although what if you POSSE to both Twitter & FB
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KartikPrabhu you can add a "reply on your website" button but not remove the POSSE-reply ones
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cweiske posse is handled in your micropub client
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AngeloGladding KartikPrabhu that's what I'm thinking.. which led me to a UI problem standing in the way
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AngeloGladding how to designate an IW reply
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AngeloGladding FB and TW can leverage their logo
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mblaney AngeloGladding: regarding the follow action, aaronpk does something similar to what I've mentioned: instead of looking for rel="webaction" he's looking for rel="subscribe" on your home page.
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AngeloGladding cweiske my situation is, i believe similar to mblaney, kind of like known, where i want first and foremost users of my software to be able to operate amongst nodes of its kind
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AngeloGladding but of course i want to reuse IW specs whenever and wherever possible
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AngeloGladding so POSSEing is secondary -- if it's enabled, add those reply buttons to the UI and explicitly link them
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AngeloGladding no complex JS required
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AngeloGladding but i'm running away from that solution to be honest
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AngeloGladding i'm sure the complexity is there for a reason
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cweiske POSSE means that your article-posting-interface has a checkbox for twitter and facebook and whatnot
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cweiske and that, when you post your article, the blog software does syndication in the background automatically
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cweiske if you checked the posse targets
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cweiske checkboxes
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AngeloGladding mblaney the follow method i was contemplating was a rel=followee on my /network page with a webmention back to the followee's canonical URL
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AngeloGladding but that seems a bit roundabout
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AngeloGladding cweiske, yeah i get that, so what i'm saying is that if you *don't* POSSE to twitter then you definitely don't need the additional complexity of the JS-config
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cweiske I think you're getting something wrong here
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mblaney it's all a bit roundabout, but it's a tricky one to solve. you can at least leave the webmention out of it for now as that's secondary,
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cweiske what place are you talking about where you want to put those buttons?
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AngeloGladding cweiske on a note on my site
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cweiske so the goal is to provide a "reply to my post" button, and a "like my post" button
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AngeloGladding right
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AngeloGladding and if it is *not* POSSEd then there's only one method of remote reply -- another IW site
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cweiske typically, those are "reply on twitter" or "reply on facebook" buttons, linking to forms on those silos
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cweiske so you mean if you yourself did not posse to twitter, then there should not be a "reply on twitter" button?
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AngeloGladding yes
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cweiske ok, I wasn't aware of that
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AngeloGladding is there a logical manner of replying on twitter if the note isn't POSSEd ther?
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cweiske no idea actually
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AngeloGladding i'm personally writing a "decentralized social network" that operates in a decentralized manner using open standards (IW)
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AngeloGladding so POSSE is more secondary to me than most indiewebbers
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mblaney when you click the settings link on my blog, if you choose fb or twitter you will only get repost webactions.
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AngeloGladding so i'm averse to the additional complexity and wonder if different buttons wouldn't be simpler
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AngeloGladding mblaney do you consider having a bunch of different buttons just sitting there w/o javascript ugly or more complex than your current setup?
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mblaney it would definitely be noisier, I like the idea of keeping it simple.
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AngeloGladding mblaney with regards to the roundaboutedness -- i'm trying to recreate the fluidity of a centralized social network so i want a "Follow" to show up on the followee's interface -- hence the webmention
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AngeloGladding million dollar question -- is your solution actually simpler?
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mblaney but I do understand what you're trying to do, a lot more work for you though :-)
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mblaney sorry you're right it's not simple, I mean keeping the UI simple.
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AngeloGladding well that's what I mean -- it requires JS, not a big deal for 99.9% of users but js;dr is an argument i can lodge in this forum, and it requires the user to jump through modal dialogs
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AngeloGladding i guess i won't know until i have a cluster**** of different POSSE reply buttons
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cweiske you don't need different reply buttons
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cweiske I'd implement it that way:
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mblaney if I could make mine simpler I would :-)
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cweiske (if POSSEd) 1. show twitter button
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cweiske 2. load indie-config
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cweiske 3. if that succeeds, remove twitter button, only show indie reply button
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mblaney cweiske: one of the reasons I changed my implementation was that Firefox broke indie-config loading on Linux :-(
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mblaney AngeloGladding I'm happy that I have something that works, but I'm always interested in ways that might make it easier.
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cweiske how did it break it?
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AngeloGladding i guess my hangup is JS reliance
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AngeloGladding in my ideal world i travel to remote sites, view their content, engage with it using my site and never load a script on theirs
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AngeloGladding i suppose i could just rely more on feed-reading
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AngeloGladding but if someone Like's something and i click through to it
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AngeloGladding i land on a remote site with NoScript enabled
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mblaney cweiske it's been a while since I tried it but from memory it would open the handler in the parent window.
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AngeloGladding and i'm on firefox/linux so maybe my experimentation thus far has been tainted
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AngeloGladding cweiske you say "You can try it on the bottom on this page."
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cweiske I removed that a while ago
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cweiske since not even I myself had that working
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cweiske went back to the normal email reply
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mblaney AngeloGladding: telling a site who you are, without telling *every* site who you are, turns out to be quite tricky.
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AngeloGladding i just enabled full text search in sqlite and everything broke so i'm unable to show you what i'm working on unfortunately
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mblaney you're right that if you do everything in a reader context than you've solved the problem.
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mblaney (how
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mblaney (how's your non-js reader going for you though? :-P)
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AngeloGladding i have js FULLY LOADED on my own site ;)
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AngeloGladding so i'm feeding on my own site and i see that someone liked something and click through to it
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AngeloGladding do i open it in an iframe on my own site?
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AngeloGladding or do i just click through
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AngeloGladding i want to click through and see their design theme and layout and format, etc..
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AngeloGladding no JS, click the bookmark button, goes back to my UI, i add some tags, publish, takes me back to their page, it represents my public bookmark
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AngeloGladding in an ideal world..
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mblaney I block being iframed so that won't always work anyway.
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AngeloGladding yeah i just let noscript do its thing and don't even claim to fully understand it
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AngeloGladding ignorance is bliss?
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AngeloGladding anyway, thought the solution would be simpler so i guess i'll KISS and move on
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AngeloGladding as far as your comment above mblaney -- i think the best approach is to have degrees of knowledge of user identity
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AngeloGladding no knowledge of user -- web+action:
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AngeloGladding replies, likes, etc.
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AngeloGladding indieauth -- "friend" level access to my photo gallery
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AngeloGladding i've been thinking about a "friend" feed but feel like i don't have the fundamentals in place to go there yet
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AngeloGladding like if a follow is reciprocated then you're a "friend" and how do you get non-public posts?
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AngeloGladding don't have an answer to that one yet
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tantek there's also the Dopplr model, where you grant someone Friend access without following them
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tantek it's sort of like you invite them to follow your friends-only posts
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tantek in dopplr's case, you gave someone permission to see your future travel plans
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AngeloGladding interesting.. i was trying to contrive a use case for a non-reciprocal follow scenario
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tantek there's plenty of existing ones
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tantek and variants where you don't really follow someone or toggle the following independently of the friending
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tantek what is mute
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Loqi mute is the ability to hide posts in your reader from specific publishers https://indieweb.org/mute
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Zegnat Twitter is non-reciprocal, right? And Facebook decouples following from the reciprocal friend status (see https://indieweb.org/follow#Facebook)
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mblaney sorry I had to step away, thanks for that chat will check in again later!
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AngeloGladding had anticipated muting -- zegnat it seems like Facebook is thus allowing you to mute your friend to stop following them
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AngeloGladding mblaney thanks for the input!
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AngeloGladding tantek seems like dopplr is a following of a priveleged feed of #travel events
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Zegnat There is a bit of overlap between muting and following, I think. Muting to me feels like hiding content that otherwise would be shown, while following is me choosing the content that should be shown in the first place. On Facebook you would choose to either follow someone or not, so I don’t think muting comes in there.
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Zegnat Facebook does have “hide” options for things other people might be sharing. I would say that is muting. E.g. I do not follow ProductPageX but one of my friends does and The Algorithm™ decides to show my friend’s interaction with ProductPageX. I can then configure my news feed to hide all posts from ProductPageX.
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Zegnat Oh, apparently they added something new: Snooze. Rather than hiding a thing permanently you can choose to hide them for 30 days :o
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AngeloGladding indieweb.org/follow#Facebook says "you can unfollow people you are friends with, so their content doesn't appear in your timeline, without unfriending them"
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AngeloGladding sounds like muting a friend
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AngeloGladding snooze is funny
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Zegnat Maybe I should rephrase that. The same follow UI is used for friends and non-friends. It is just that Facebook will automatically follow when you become friends, because that is what most people want it to do.
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AngeloGladding yeah lots of discrete IW actions being taken in bunches at silos
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AngeloGladding like the act of friending both follows and adds them to your contact list
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AngeloGladding its a subscription and an h-card
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AngeloGladding and where does rel=friend come in?
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AngeloGladding so to piggyback off the topic from earlier what does a web+action://follow do?
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AngeloGladding a "Follow" button
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AngeloGladding say it takes me back to my site's UI
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AngeloGladding i'm pre-filled their canonical URI and click "Publish"
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AngeloGladding does it add a rel=followee to my /network page, subscribe to their root feed and publish a webmention to let them know that i'm following them?
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AngeloGladding *that's where I'm at currently
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AngeloGladding then their UI can eventually notify of the follow and they can chose to reciprocate in a similar fashion
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AngeloGladding at which points we're in a bi-directional follow
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AngeloGladding does this denote "Friendship"?
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AngeloGladding and furthermore how does one access the //alice.example.org/events/tagged/travel feed as a priveleged user to simulate Dopplr-esque functionality
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Zegnat tries to come up with a clever yet simple flow where you get an access token to use when requesting the travel feed
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AngeloGladding yesh -- i was just going to ask if there's any kind of prior art on the matter
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AngeloGladding it's a not-too-distant problem for me
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AngeloGladding not there yet but i'm worried i'll have to come up with solution all my won
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AngeloGladding own*
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Zegnat There are some brainstorms on https://indieweb.org/private_posts and some people have implemented private posts/messaging with private webmentions.
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Zegnat https://indieweb.org/private-webmention for a draft specification for private webmentions.
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Zegnat But I don’t think any of those cover full feeds yet :(
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AngeloGladding yeah just searched -- https://indieweb.org/private_posts#Private_feed_for_each_authenticated
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AngeloGladding so before i was using web+action i just required the user to log in
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AngeloGladding this log in was implying a follow
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AngeloGladding didn't like that idea
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AngeloGladding so now it's just a "user" instead of a "follower" but can be upgraded to "follower" using the "Follow" button
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AngeloGladding a token is exchanged
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AngeloGladding this token can be redeemed for a private feed?
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AngeloGladding ahh.. not there yet..
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AngeloGladding just don't want to implement something that's already been specified
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AngeloGladding i'll refer to those pages when the time comes
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AngeloGladding for now i need to get my tests passing again so i can provide functional examples in these discussions
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AngeloGladding thanks for the input!
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[kevinmarks] who's good at decrypting regex? I'd like to make the cassis one support 'dat' urls
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[kevinmarks] though I suppose I could just add procedural code for it
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unicyclic.com mal edited /webaction_handler (+819) "Add webaction handler example" (view diff)
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unicyclic.com mal edited /webactions (+184) "/* Malcolm Blaney */" (view diff)
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petermolnar kevinmarks https://regex101.com/ is a black-magic-decryptor
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Zegnat [kevinmarks] for the auto link? Just adding dat to the list with http and irc? Or are the URLs much different?
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dgold dat: urls are a hash at heart
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dgold although they do use ./well-known/dat as a hash-resolution solution
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dgold e.g. dat://ascraeus.org
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Zegnat Question is if the current CASSIS URL matching regex accepts the hash-only URLs. Haven’t checked.
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Zegnat Regex for URLs tend to be nightmarish.
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dgold which of the cassis url-matchers?
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dgold autolink? could just add |dat to (?:http|https|irc)
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dgold the regex is nightmarish, but I think as written it would handle a hash
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aaronpk I thought it required a "." in the hostname
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[kevinmarks] It does, so it's not matching the dat ones. I think a separate regex is a better idea, having spent a chunk of time fighting this one.
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[kevinmarks] Especially as the dat urls can have other dat urls to act on in them
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[kevinmarks] Which is no weirder than unmung I suppose, it just looks weird when you have 64 hex characters there
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[kevinmarks] I wonder if there is a sparkline way of showing those instead of fugly hex
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Zegnat If you know dat URLs follow their own specific syntax it is probably better to create a specific regex for them separately, yes.
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www.boffosocko.com edited /mobile_posting (+369) "Additional detail for WordPress with link to URL schemes for Post Kinds" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /HWC_PDX (+19) "prompted by tantek and redirect added by tantek" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /silo-quits (+420) "Vincent Ritter quits Twitter for micro.blog" (view diff)
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snarfed fyi all, a few of us met today to discuss future overall wordpress plans, both internal plumbing and UX
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snarfed details in https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-uf2/issues/30#issuecomment-356100059 and https://chat.indieweb.org/wordpress
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Loqi [snarfed] woo! [we all met today](https://chat.indieweb.org/wordpress/2018-01-08#t1515434882982000) and agreed to try out this proposal: https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-uf2/issues/30#issuecomment-312375228 . i'll do a first pass at it in the micropub plu...
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@effbiae You are seeing this in #webmentions on slack because it's easily spammed? @kxsystems #k #kx #kdb (twitter.com/_/status/950487186268340224)
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tantek huh?
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tantek lol his homepage
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gRegorLove hah!
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colinwalker.blog edited /silo-quits (+492) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (-4) "uplevel how to delete ur acc" (view diff)
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