#dev 2018-10-10

2018-10-10 UTC
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snarfed
[jgmac1106] fixed! https://brid.gy/blogger/7534747780673283753 now has the right instructions. thanks for reporting!
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Loqi
Greg Mcverry
[tmiller], [jgmac1106], Loqi_, mattl_ and renem joined the channel
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@grammasheri
↩️ Another great idea from Greg: "Comments aren't dead. We've just handed them off to Facebook, Twitter, and Instragram. it's time to take control and bring those back." ie webmention #clmooc #literacies Thanks Greg
(twitter.com/_/status/1049847854984908801)
jeremycherfas_, Loqi_, swentel and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
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[kevinmarks]
hm, the google plus circles exports are a bit crap - you get a vcf file with a vcard for each person in the circle, but it's just their G+ URL
[chrisburnell] joined the channel
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[kevinmarks]
could we encourage the person from Data Liberation who came to indiewebcamp to give us h-cards with their rel=me URLs included from profiles?
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@dogtrax
↩️ I tried to follow Webmention tutorial to post/syndicate a poem via Wordpress site. Not sure if it worked. Can you check to see if I followed it right? (Does http://Wordpress.com allow webmentions? Didn’t you tell me once that Edublogs does not?) https://wordpress.com/post/dailyconnector.com/695
(twitter.com/_/status/1049954471290314752)
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@Uxlco0
↩️ @gchampeau @MaisOuVaLeWeb Ouvrez des blogs oui ! mais avec webmentions ;)
(twitter.com/_/status/1049959990008668160)
calumryan and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
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Zegnat
[jgmac1106], I am not super familiar with Bridgy. If https://brid.gy/about#blogs is running, then yes, a wordpress.com hosted blog should be sending webmentions.
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Zegnat
I do not know about testing that or setting that up though.
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Zegnat
As I wrote on Twitter, Kevin’s HTML seems to be wrong. So even if that was running, I am not sure a valid webmention would ever be sent
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[jgmac1106]
can you post link to your tweet?
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@martijnvdven
@dogtrax Stopping by from the #indieweb chat! I don’t believe http://wordpress.com automatically sends webmentions 😞 Try manually submiting through https://indieweb.xyz/submit? But not sure your post would be accepted, HTML seems wrong 🤔 Might be a missed quote somewhere. See screenshot. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpIz39FWkAA9G4R.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/1049959249701457920)
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Zegnat
No, that HTML seems right
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Zegnat
Though full disclosure: I didn’t actually check if Kevin’s (or this) theme is mf2 compatible
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Zegnat
Neither have I checked if that is a requirement from indieweb.xyz
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Zegnat
generally tries to stay out of WP
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[jgmac1106]
he didn't install bridgy
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Zegnat
I don’t think you can install any plugins on WP.com?
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[jgmac1106]
I am also thinking I need to add in a piece about making an h-card manually for wordpress.com
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Zegnat
You have to add your site on brid.gy for it to start watching your blog and send webmentions for you .... I think?
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[jgmac1106]
no but brid.gy works with wordpress.com just for webmentions
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[jgmac1106]
yes making tutorial now two seconde
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Zegnat
Looking forward to all the tutorials you are going to have to create to get the edu folks over :D
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[jgmac1106]
but hey my post didnt syndicate to indieweb.xyz unles it only polls like one can hour or something
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[jgmac1106]
I have most of them made, my YouTube site has a series for each of the two working IndieWeb themes
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[jgmac1106]
but have to get people off of WordPress as hfast as possible just not sustainable and never works, hoping to move them into micro.blog for folks who want to touch nothing or Known for those who know enough to get in trouble
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@jgmac1106
↩️ adding http://brid.gy http://jgregorymcverry.com/adding-bridgy-to-wordpress-com/ Not sure why http://wordpress.com changed your html  for syndication With http://brid.gy anytime someone mentions your post or website you would get a webmention as a comment. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7824-2/)
(twitter.com/_/status/1049980012626137088)
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@jgmac1106
↩️ adding http://brid.gy http://jgregorymcverry.com/adding-bridgy-to-wordpress-com/ Not sure why http://wordpress.com changed your html  for syndication With http://brid.gy anytime someone mentions your post or website you would get a webmention as a comment. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7824-2/)
(twitter.com/_/status/1049980012626137088)
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[jgmac1106]
ohh yeah I can't send webmentions so I would not be able to syndicate
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@jgmac1106
↩️ @dogtrax you are probably off to school but with http://wordpress.com you can only (which is still awesome) add webmentions. If you want all the #IndieWeb plugins you need to be on http://wordpress.org. Happy to make you a subdomain as a sandbox. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7827-2/)
(twitter.com/_/status/1049980706183614464)
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Zegnat
Not being able to send webmentions still boggles my mind.
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jgmac1106
almost done with the WordPress exit plan, have my website pretty much laid out, just need to try my hand at the Known/WordPress importer plugin…if it fails I might just archive my site
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jgmac1106
I only have about 2 gigs of contact so hopefully importign won’t be too bad
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[kevinmarks]
the u-syndication class isn't there, as you said. There is a link, so the webmention should be accepted, but if it requires a u-syndication it may be rejected.
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[jgmac1106]
he didn't have bridgy installed at the time...but his wordpress.com site stripped at u-syndicsation and replaced it with "class"
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jgmac1106
!tell gRegorLove when you get a chance can you look at the css grid and my hcard on: https://github.com/jgmac1106/homepage/blob/master/index.html staging: https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jgmac1106
not even sure [dogtrax] would need the h-card but threw that in tutorial for webmentions for good measure
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[kevinmarks]
wordpress.com wants to own your html
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jgmac1106
ha ha, it is really the group feature folks are looking for, but beyond activity stream, and it seems everyone wants to poo poo activitypub, we don’t have solution for that
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jgmac1106
after my Hangout on Air they were hoping they could use something like indeweb.xyz could atleast curate all their post from #clmooc …t
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Zegnat
“something like indieweb.xyz” could definitely work. But actual indieweb.xyz may be more dependent on correct microformats than most random blogs currently offer
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[kevinmarks]
the groups on google+ can be private, right?
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[kevinmarks]
we could replicate public groups relatively easily, but private is harder.
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jgmac1106
yes but most of the education groups were public, meaning you could join but everything was displayable on G+ and linkable
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jgmac1106
they want public groups
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[kevinmarks]
Is it worth gathering the different use cases in our wiki?
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[kevinmarks]
also, circles are non-public, hence google exporting as vcf lists
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jgmac1106
but this: https://drmacsthinkingspace.wordpress.com/2018/10/10/7/ did not syndicate to indieweb.xyz what is the other reddit like clone that isn’t news
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jgmac1106
yes my circles come as vcards
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jgmac1106
I am gonna document it, but didnot kmnow to put it on sitedeaths, google+, or groups
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jgmac1106
so what do they get by adding webmentions to wordpress.com….I think I will just stick with don’t use wordpress.com
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[kevinmarks]
I'd start on Google+, as documenting that is the focus now, and we can come up with subtypes of groups as we discover the cases people want
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Zegnat
Looking at that mf2 parser output, jgmac1106, it tells me the link is actually a feed, not a post. And the one entry in said feed does not have a syndication property which is required by indieweb.xyz
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[kevinmarks]
using mention.tech I get a 202 for that post
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[kevinmarks]
and it does show up
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Zegnat
Interesting that it shows up. Wonder what parsing indieweb.xyz is using
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[kevinmarks]
maybe it doesn't require u-syndication
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jgmac1106
indieweb.xys post directions say to have it…sounds like it is a parsing error there, why would my post be parsed as a feed?
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jgmac1106
oo mention.tech looks nice, I am meeting with [downes] later today to try and figure out all thw ebmention badges for his his elarnign 3.0 course
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Zegnat
Because your HTML includes an hfeed class on the body element, [jgmac1106]
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[kevinmarks]
but the link in the instructions is linking to the right place https://indieweb.xyz/en/indiewebpoetry
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jgmac1106
sweet it worked! Just waited on polling
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[kevinmarks]
I just sent it too
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Zegnat
Sorry, not on body element ... in a wrapper div that is the first child of the body element
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jgmac1106
can’t fix that
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Zegnat
In other words: you are using a theme that for some reason has chosen that for single-post-pages it should still include `hfeed` on the wrapper.
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jgmac1106
[kevinmarks] the original #cck08 that [downes] ran used technorati
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jgmac1106
…by theme…the default wordpress.com theme….
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Zegnat
If that is what you are using on drmacsthinkingspace, then yes
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Zegnat
slowly backs away from the WP discussion again
[chegalabonga] and [Rose] joined the channel
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[Rose]
Wait, was that Zegnat running past screaming? 😛
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petermolnar
I'm tempted to say we should create an indieweb-starter-cms-bundle: grav, with a damn simple mf2 theme, add in a couple of extra plugins, maybe with some sort of brid.gy, telegraph, and webmention.io integration, plus the admin panel. With the wordpress gutenberg nightmare upon us, this sounds like a viable option.
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[Rose]
I use Grav, I'm modifying the Lingonberry theme for myself to be indieweb compatible right now
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jgmac1106
100% agree, though micro.blog and Known may fill this niche
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jgmac1106
I know after trying this with grav [rose] and someone else are metting at nurnberg to scope out a hosting plan for Known installs
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[Rose]
Jeremy Charfas
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jgmac1106
[rose] just found trying to do everything in Grav was too hard when Known already had all the working parts
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petermolnar
jgmac1106: the thing with micro.blog and known is that both of them is stream oriented; grav, on the other hand comes from the homepage/website angle
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[Rose]
For me Grav already has all the working parts
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Zegnat
I personally ran into annoyances trying to expand Known. And think I wasn’t alone in that.
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[Rose]
Apart from the Webmentions which I'm still writing, but that should be done this weekend.
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petermolnar
grav requires quite modern PHP knowledge to code, but if I could do it, it can't be that hard :)
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petermolnar
(my personal grudge with the media library grav is using doesn't apply to this case)
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Zegnat
This makes me want t revisit Grav. We’ll see what happens in Nürnberg. My personal goal is to get a functioning blog again.
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[Rose]
In my case: moderate PHP knowledge, and excellent google skills are sufficing 😛
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[Rose]
Well you can look at my Grav install Zegnat, that might be helpful
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petermolnar
Zegnat: grav + admin panel is rather impressive to be honest
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petermolnar
knowing where it came from, from before the admin panel
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[Rose]
Note to self: set up a test install of Grav that people can log into and play around with, with a micropub and media endpoint
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petermolnar
it even has user management now, but it needs an extra plugin
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Loqi
[Rose] has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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[Rose]
Users are a thing I'm working with for work, need to figure out what we're doing there
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petermolnar
besides, the current grav has quite a lot of similarity to pre 3.0 wordpress :)
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petermolnar
in a good way
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[jgmac1106]
I could do a Grav site instead of Known. It is a one push install for me in cPanel
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[jgmac1106]
@zegnat you mean making idno plugins? @mapkyca and [benwerd] pushing code recently
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[jgmac1106]
[kevinmarks] scroll through the mass-migration group on G+ to see all the networks being thrown around
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[jgmac1106]
For my tribe a public group is all we need. Will document on wiki after class
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Zegnat
[jgmac1106], I looked at the plugins, yes. To see if we could get other post types supported easily. But there was no easy way. Think I spoke with … cleverdevil? … about it a bit. Especially getting the micropub support extended to other posts looked hard to do
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[jgmac1106]
.... Ooh that would be a non starter for me. I was choosing Known over microbkog bc of community supported plugins and more post types... Got addicted to all the post types through micropub
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[jgmac1106]
[kevinmarks] here is an interesting thread describing use case for G+ https://twitter.com/lynhilt/status/1049725131302551552?s=19 Alan Levine recommended IndieWeb without prompting and that started a cascade of folks asking me
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@lynhilt
.@cogdog If you could create an online community with open web tools, open to educators that replicated what we established in this Google+ community, how would you do it? https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/118257375639026937151 I know no one is surprised by this news. But we built a really important space here.
(twitter.com/_/status/1049725131302551552)
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aaronpk
Keep thinking I should open source a version of p3k to give people another easy option for a ready to go IndieWeb site
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[Rose]
That would be nice
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[eddie]
Yeah, I think that would be very helpful, aaronpk. I’ve thought about trying to do something like that, but Node.js isn’t entry level. So I haven’t been able to figure out a user friendly way to take anything from my site and make it more plug and play
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[eddie]
But I think p3k is well set up for that
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swentel
I'm working on a drupal profile as well with a very basic theme
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swentel
that should be a speedy setup as well
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Zegnat
I also think petermolnar is on to something with some systems being more stream oriented while others are more page oriented. That is something I have been running into working on my posting interface. The things I want for long form article/journal writing do not match up with the things I want for the quick checkins and satus updates. Might end up seperating those two things entirely.
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[Rose]
I'm separating the two. They're currently under /blog and /microblog, but the latter is moving to a subdomain
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[kevinmarks]
I feel like a bit of effort spent on glitch would give something, but they don't have a domain answer yet.
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petermolnar
Zegnat re post types: imo hard-set post types is not the good approach; post-type discovery is not that hard instead
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petermolnar
as for stream vs page that is a very interesting topic, and maybe even outlines basic differences of what people tend to remember of homepage vs social media
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petermolnar
we could pull it up as a topic on iwc berlin for discussion, what fits the stream and what's too out of context
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petermolnar
eg. I always found galleries in stream weird
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Zegnat
petermolnar, I think it was doing post type discovery, but that algo was still hardcoded and unextendable. But I’d have to look into it again, been a while and I might be misremembering how Known implemented it
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jeremycherfas
!tell [jgmac1106] Does WP.com not allow you to send manually with Telegraph?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jgmac1106]
[kevinmarks] I am going to to a meeting at Glitch HQ Thursday to talk IndieWeb and Education. Anything I should suggest?
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[jgmac1106]
I can go Glitch>GitHub >GitHub pages easily but for my own domain I add SFTP step.
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aaronpk
Custom domain support? So you can point a domain at a glitch project
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Zegnat
GitHub Pages does support custom domain, so if your thing works with just plain HTML in GitHub Pages that could work
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[jgmac1106]
[jeremycherfas] I will try later. Have to build the badge templates for @downes first and make sure my simplified approach works for his class
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aaronpk
I thought glitch also let you run code, which obviously wouldn't work with GitHub pages
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[jgmac1106]
[aaronpk] and @zegnat that's my thinking. It does both an html page, or node.js app hooked into mySQLlite
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jeremycherfas
Rose I will be interested to see how you get on with Lingonberry; I gave up on it because all the hero images was way more than I needed.
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Zegnat
Yep. Not sure what Glitch>GitHub>GitHub-Pages looks like. That’s why I specified it being plain HTML :)
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[jgmac1106]
Or a node.js with no storage but you can hook into any DB you want
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[jgmac1106]
I did it for the person [tantek] helped at IWC NYC, can't remember name, but I forked her repo, imported to Glitch, and it was live on GitHub pages
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jeremycherfas
In my case, crap PHP skills and good help here have got me quite far.
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[jgmac1106]
Actually just deleted project, felt weird having her personal website
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sknebel
you could run webmention endpoint, site generator, editing UI on glitch and have it update a static page e.g. on github pages
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[jgmac1106]
Yeah from conversation with Anil sounds like they want to get all the buildingblocks, or atleast apps that connect to building block APIs on Glitch so people can launch an IndieWeb website from Glitch
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[jgmac1106]
.... But it's not a priority (that is my gut not stated) as they launch teams and tools for learning... But happy to help us
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jeremycherfas
I'm feeding my Known stream to my Grav sidebar, which is working well for me. And going in the opposite direction to [Rose] by trying to have a page in Grav for Notes that would essentially be a stream.
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[kevinmarks]
that would be great. So we need to get things into npm that coexist so they can just include them?
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[jgmac1106]
[jeremycherfas] I am building a few static pages and will hook different Known streams into my nav and keep my stream on a subdomain
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[jgmac1106]
Yeah [kevinmarks] I tried to fork your blog project for my badge issuer but do not know enough about forms
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[jgmac1106]
The micropub, indie login, h-card generator, and my site Tempe are there already
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Zegnat
Send me a sketch of the form, I’m happy to do that HTML/CSS for you
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[jgmac1106]
Will do @zegnat meeting with @downes in a few hours to describe how webmention badges will work and make html templates. But I am going to add fields for names and img... Can figure out adding parser later
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[kevinmarks]
also, I was confused about auth when I made that, as I was hoping to use the glitch accounts for it; I should redo it with indieauth
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[kevinmarks]
as at the moment anyone can post.
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[kevinmarks]
I made another thingy that is basically atwitter posting client; I could merge the ideas
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[jgmac1106]
Yeah @schmarty built indielogin or auth (still unclear when to say each) into screech and Kapowski and Stardust, the webring maker
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[kevinmarks]
well, you need a way to set up your own h-card and rel=me when you fork the project, I think
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[jgmac1106]
May ask you few questions later so I don't sound like total idiot talking about npm parts
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[jgmac1106]
Yeah... That make sense I put one in my indieweb homepage template and my indieweb course temple
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[jgmac1106]
Template... Though happy to have folks pray to md
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[jgmac1106]
Well off to office, bye all, really excited about all this
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Zegnat
“indielogin or auth (still unclear when to say each)” - indielogin.com is a website that lets you authenticate as your own domain through a number of ways; IndieAuth is a specification that gives one set of rules for authenticating with a URL as identity.
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[schmarty]
Glitch still doesn’t have a great solution for custom domains. They don’t have any CNAME support so you have to use a proxy that will rewrite the Host header. Currently fly.io is the only service I know that does this.
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aaronpk
Zegnat++
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Loqi
Zegnat has 61 karma in this channel over the last year (166 in all channels)
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[schmarty]
(On the cheap, I mean. You can set up a proxy of your own on a VM, CloudFlare supports it at a paid tier, AWS CloudFront supports it but good luck configuring that for new folks, ...)
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aaronpk
lol yeah kinda defeats the purpose of using glitch
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aaronpk
supporting custom domains would be a good plan for them
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Zegnat
Apparently we need to still be more clear about indielogin vs indieauth, aaronpk ;)
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aaronpk
At least that one does have a clear answer :-)
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[kevinmarks]
they should partner with hover
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[kevinmarks]
hm. we should also encourage them to make glitch accounts indieauth freindly
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[jgmac1106]
Will bring it up tomorrow.. If I get chance kinda a social gathering to mark FogCreek becoming Glitch but I have meeting with team before
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aaronpk
What do you mean?
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[kevinmarks]
well https://glitch.com/@kevinmarks needs an h-card and some rel-me options (github being an obvious one)
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[jgmac1106]
I understand it now @zegnat and @arronpk. And @schmarty if you didn't catch it still trying to name the webring app Stardust
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aaronpk
You mean RelMeAuth friendly
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Zegnat
That would be RelMeAuth friendly
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Zegnat
darn, sniped by aaronpk
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Zegnat
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 104 karma in this channel over the last year (320 in all channels)
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Zegnat
It’s not IndieAuth friendly until it adds an authorization endpoint
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[kevinmarks]
beingable to link to https://glitch.com/@kevinmarks and have that work as an indielogin endpoint too
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[jgmac1106]
I have an h-card maker on Glitch but it's Dat-page project... Easy to make just html version
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aaronpk
if they have an OAuth API already they have a good start on supporting IndieAuth natively
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[jgmac1106]
They must the integration with GitHub is seemless. I love it
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aaronpk
But adding rel=me links is way less work and better to start
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[jgmac1106]
And Mozilla is shutting down Thimble and moving everyone to Glitch semi public knowledge on that.. But Mozilla can get up to 30k unique a day on some projects
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aaronpk
What is Thimble?
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Loqi
Thimble is an online code editor to publish web pages and learn HTML, CSS, and Javascript https://thimble.mozilla.org https://indieweb.org/Thimble
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[kevinmarks]
hm, looks like the way to do this is to have a 'make your own page' form that uses the https://remix-button.glitch.me/ to populate the env variable for name etc.
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sknebel
them integrating github doesn't mean they have an oauth API for themselves
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sknebel
and of course googling if they have their own sign in api is impossible, thanks to the name ...
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[kevinmarks]
also, you get every other oauth api implemented there
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Zegnat
Now I want my blog online so I can write a bit of an explaner on IndieAuth vs indielogin vs RelMeAuth
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[jgmac1106]
Env variable hardest part for new users. Nobody has any idea what it is. They remix projects and do not know why they do not work
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sknebel
Zegnat: you could start by combing over the wiki again, but yes, you should get your blog online :D
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[jgmac1106]
But that is fixable through UI and teaching
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jgmac1106]
I still should populate Thimble with get started projects
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Zegnat
We may need to do an update of that one jeremycherfas, things have changed, haha
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Loqi
Zegnat: jeremycherfas left you a message 1 minute ago: you practically wrote this https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/i-yam-who-i-yam
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[jgmac1106]
Ha ha I think I used that to make a Popeye meme
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Zegnat
Or at least, indieauth.com has now been replaced so things can be a bit more clear
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[schmarty]
[jgmac1106] I don’t recognize the name Stardust for any project I have written thus far. ;)
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[jgmac1106]
The hotel where Zack and Kelly got married. Perfect name for webring app
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jeremycherfas
I'd be glad to update.
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[jgmac1106]
Wedding in Las Vegas just doesn't sound as cool as Stardust
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[schmarty]
I have really got to put the Bayside High theme to bed, hahaha 😂
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Loqi
nice
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[jgmac1106]
Nope never my fav indieweb Easter egg
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[grantcodes]
Took me far too long but eventually my site is running on a new micropub backend. Now time to see what is broken! 😂
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[chegalabonga]
Does anybody know if Mapbox is a good alternative to Google Maps? looking to get away from those kinds of companies. To share location maps on site.
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[chegalabonga]
ethical* alternative, I should have asked
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[chegalabonga]
ergh found
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[chegalabonga]
```
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[chegalabonga]
Website Logs and Cookies: We share information about your device and interaction with our website with our service providers that host our website and provide marketing and analytics services to us. The marketing and analytics services that integrate directly into our website include AdRoll, Customer.io, Facebook, Google Analytics, LinkedIn, and Marketo. These and other third parties that we use may collect information
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[chegalabonga]
```
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[chegalabonga]
god damn it
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[chegalabonga]
oooh leaflet
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[chegalabonga]
thank you [kevinmarks]
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[kevinmarks]
it can use openstreetmap, or you can host your own tiles
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[kevinmarks]
also, it is really easy
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[jgmac1106]
What do people mean when they say adding custom post types is hard post type Discovery is a better approach
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[jgmac1106]
I am finding manually just writing a post type is easier but then I have to worry about how does that fit into the templates
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sknebel
[jgmac1106]: you've posted the link to your glitch grid css problem multiple times now but never answered the question *what you actually need help with*
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[jgmac1106]
@sknebel I can't figure why my name and address aren't in the same column
#
sknebel
what do you mean by "in the same column"? for me one is directly above the other?
#
sknebel
or in the same column as some other element?
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[jgmac1106]
In my h-card grid inspector says I did it correct yet it looks like it spans 8/9
#
[jgmac1106]
Want to make sure the homepage template is proper, my indieweb template is one of most remixed projects on Glitch.. Indieweb homepage might be the same, want it dressed in best Sunday's
#
sknebel
the element around the h-card is defined as being 9 columns wide, that's probably not what you wanted?
#
[jgmac1106]
No I wanted that. I have the text spanning 2-6 and 6-8 for h-card.. Off top of my head... Not looking at it
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[jgmac1106]
I want them in same row but with empty grid cells in 1 and 9
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sknebel
you have set the h-card to "start at 7, and then go 9 colums wide", not 7-9
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[jgmac1106]
Ohh thx thought 7/9 meant span seven to nine
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sknebel
it does, but you have "7 / span 9" in there
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sknebel
which means "span 9 starting from 7"
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[jgmac1106]
Okay so 7/ span 2 is same thing as 7/9? Good to know. Still learning grid. Tried flexbox first time on the following page
#
sknebel
think that's equivalent, yes. (although I'm not too deep into grid either)
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petermolnar
[jgmac1106]: https://indieweb.org/post-type-discovery - this can be done as an algorithm (I used to have a combination, detect, then store https://petermolnar.net/wordpress-post-format-discovery/ ) and it doesn't have to be hard-set to, say, "image post"
#
petermolnar
in my experience, needing to format the post in order for the discovery to work well is a good restriction
#
petermolnar
it doesn't let you stray too far away with formatting :)
#
Zegnat
[chegalabonga]: if you are looking at maps for users’ privacy, may I suggest reading this too: https://sebastiangreger.net/2018/05/self-hosting-maps-control-privacy-ux/? :)
#
Loqi
While self-hosting is comparatively easy for content formats like photos, same does not apply to interactive maps – given the sheer amount of data and/or the complexity of its processing. Experimenting with OpenMapTiles, it for the first time appea...
#
Zegnat
petermolnar, IIRC, Known is storing every post as a special object of the specific post type. So the micropub plugin for Known needs to know what type of object to create for each incoming thing. Maybe that was the part that was pretty hard to extend. (As said, can’t remember exactly anymore.)
[chegalabonga] joined the channel
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[chegalabonga]
thanks Zegnat
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Zegnat
Would’ve been nice if the detection of “what is this post” happened after storage / on retrieval / on render rather than at the moment you tried and save something to Known
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petermolnar
that's a very rigid data structure
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petermolnar
what happens if you want to convert one to another?
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[tantek]
Indeed Zegnat, the whole notion of what is this post can change if someone adds properties like a photo to a note
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[tantek]
Exactly
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@grammasheri
↩️ We’d need tutorials cuz not everyone will find the steps easy enough to follow. Not all can get/afford WP .org and that is a learning curve too. Maybe a talk with @edublogs support about webmentions We still need an anchor. A google site?
(twitter.com/_/status/1050045850452340736)
#
Zegnat
petermolnar, well, you’d have to custom code that. Last I checked out Known, they have a separate editor screen per post type, so there is no possibility for adding a property.
#
Zegnat
I think the database structure was a serialised PHP object in a single column... something like that. I was surprised by it.
#
petermolnar
I have many problems with WordPress, but at least it's ridiculously flexible with it's db structure; Known seems to be the complete opposite :)
#
Zegnat
Do note that things could have changed. It has been a while since I last looked into this.
#
petermolnar
Zegnat: that's... that's mongodb stored in mysql. It should be, at least, JSON, so newer versions would leverage that
#
Zegnat
Could actually be over a year ago? Part of me remembers talking with someone at IWC Berlin about Known last year.
#
petermolnar
serialized PHP is safe, but that's all the nice things I can say about it
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[tantek]
[jgmac1106] I think it was Hannah I helped at IWC NYC who was using Github static pages
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Zegnat
“serialized PHP is safe”[1]. [1]: as long as you only unserialise objects you trust
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petermolnar
it started to sound more and more grav is a reasonable candidate; less complex, than wordpress; has web gui; no database dependency; data and config is in files; quite flexible; written in modern php and is simple to extend
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Zegnat
Please tell me it doesn’t use YAML for said configs
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petermolnar
I need to verify, I think it does
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petermolnar
YAML is not the devil though
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petermolnar
just force it to be very, very simple
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Zegnat
Well ... restricted YAML isn’t :P
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Zegnat
YAML-the-entire-structure-language is beyond words
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petermolnar
yes, config is in yaml, templating in twig; however, nearly everything can be configured/altered via the admin panel
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petermolnar
oh, even the language files seem to be in yaml
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petermolnar
the .po and .mo files in wp had serious effects on my brain
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Zegnat
If you are keeping things simple anyway, and you are writing and reading configs by code not by humans, please stick to JSON. Not that JSON parsers haven’t been known to get into trouble, but still.
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petermolnar
grav started out as files only
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petermolnar
it didn't have a gui
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petermolnar
hence yaml, I believe
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Zegnat
Ah. Hmm
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Zegnat
tries to collectively nudge all YAML peeps to TOML
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petermolnar
either .ini or yaml
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petermolnar
there's really no need for one more
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Zegnat
I think INI files are all valid TOML
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Zegnat
TOML just codifies some conventions people created around INI
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Zegnat
And added nesting, because that’s the big thing with JSON/YAML
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petermolnar
tantek, I challenge you, CASSIS that's valid INI/TOML/YAML/JSON :D
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Zegnat
Hahaha
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Loqi
rofl
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Zegnat
So. INIFeed... any takers?
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petermolnar
introducing the .tijy (TOML-INI-JSON-YAML)
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Zegnat
Pronunciation: /tɛiɛi/ ?
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Zegnat
Works too. I just wanted to advertise for the letter ij a bit more.
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petermolnar
just to confuse people deeper
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Zegnat
goes to download Grav again
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@jgmac1106
↩️ Ohh it's on http://indieweb.xyz made tutorial for Bridgy webmentions. That is all you can do with @wordpressdotcom let me know if you need help with that. Will try to reach out @edublogs as teaching with webmentions awesome. Never looked into new Google sites for #IndieWeb
(twitter.com/_/status/1050052469768802305)
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jeremycherfas
What is TOML?
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Loqi
TOML is Tom’s Obvious, Minimal Language, a configuration file format that should be called INI 2.0 https://indieweb.org/TOML
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jeremycherfas
Thanks Loqi
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Loqi
you're welcome
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jacky
are you self-aware Loqi?
#
jacky
LOL @ "should be called INI 2.0"
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Zegnat
I don’t disagree. It is very much based on INI, as such imediately recognisable
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Zegnat
Ha, petermolnar wrote that definition :D
[jgmac1106] joined the channel
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[jgmac1106]
Well now you folks got me all kind of confused on my WP exit plan. To me Known is a solution works out of box, has minimum post types I need (though never thought about a note with a photo becoming a photo post... But I mentally see difference)
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[jgmac1106]
And people are still making idno plugins... But if folks start hacking on Grav.....
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[jgmac1106]
I did put in about 350k for development of Known core into my IES grant but won't now about that for months
jgmac1106_, tantek__ and [Rose] joined the channel
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Zegnat
For 350k I’ll write you an entire new micropub plugin and flexible post types, [jgmac1106] ;P
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Zegnat
Honestly, as I said, I don’t know the current state of Known. And it definitely still is a good all-in-one package for stream like blogging today
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[tantek]
Known is in a very good state (on GitHub) as benwerd has been committing lots of fixes and resolving issues towards a 1.0 release
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[tantek]
If you've ever used Known and found *any* issues with it, please file them ASAP to get them fixed for 1.0
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gRegorLove
jgmac1106, did you still have the css grid question?
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Loqi
gRegorLove: jgmac1106 left you a message 5 hours, 19 minutes ago: when you get a chance can you look at the css grid and my hcard on: https://github.com/jgmac1106/homepage/blob/master/index.html staging: https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me/
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[jgmac1106]
no @sknebel answered it I did not know 7/ span 9 is not same thing as 7/2
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sknebel
gRegorLove: you lost +v
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gRegorLove
h-card looks pretty good, though city and state should be separated into p-locality, p-region. Both are in p-region currently.
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gRegorLove
asks Loqi for +v
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gRegorLove
Er, both are in p-locality currently*
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aaronpk
oops! Quit and rejoin
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[jgmac1106]
well @zegnat the 350K is for a bunch of dev work, including bias think aloud, teacher dashboard, but it @mapkyca on grant and part of deal was contributing back to Known Core
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[jgmac1106]
...and you never get IES grants on first submission
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Zegnat
tantek my issue way back then was a structural one. I doubt they are looking to upend their entire database structure between now and v1. If they haven't changed it already. And it was a personal issue on my end, not a technical "something is failing" issue
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[kevinmarks]
iirc, known has a serialised json model for data, not a direct sql table. This means it should be easier to add new properties without db changes
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[adamprocter]
Hello dev people here we go...
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[adamprocter]
server {
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[adamprocter]
listen 217.147.85.86:80;
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[adamprocter]
server_name http://www.b-f-t-k.info;
#
[adamprocter]
if ($request_uri ~ ^(/.*)[\#](.*)$)
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[adamprocter]
{
#
[adamprocter]
}
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[adamprocter]
return 301 $1no$2;
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[adamprocter]
}
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[adamprocter]
so the expected result should be
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[adamprocter]
Visitor types http://www.b-f-t-k.info/#3 and they get taken to http://www.b-f-t-k.info/no3
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[adamprocter]
A hash was used in the printed publication prior to asking me about it. I am hoping to apply band aid to fix mistake
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sknebel
not possible server side, the server never sees the #
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[adamprocter]
Ah blast
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sknebel
you could put a small JS snippet on the page and redirect that way?
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[adamprocter]
Problem is i believe (am awfk) that a file with #3.html just doesn’t load to even perform a redirect?
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sknebel
it loads the homepage
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[adamprocter]
Yes...
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sknebel
everything after # isn't sent to the server
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[adamprocter]
Oh
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sknebel
but you oculd on the homepage have javascript that checks if there is a #3 fragment, and if yes redirect the browser to /no3
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[adamprocter]
Ah yes on the home page I add some JS looking for # in URL awesome thanks. I don’t like it but I think they really want # for now - I’ll ask them to do errata though aswell.
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sknebel
I think what you want is: if (window.location.hash == "#3") {window.location.replace("http://www.b-f-t-k.info/no3")}
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[adamprocter]
Thank you will try.
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[jgmac1106]
@zegnat here is the blank template badge I made for @downes https://github.com/jgmac1106/webmention-badges/blob/master/gettingstartedbadge.html will work on php form after our call
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[tantek]
what is a hashbang
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Loqi
A shebang (or hashbang) is the character sequence #! https://indieweb.org/hashbang
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Zegnat
I'll have a look in a bit jgmac1106 :) Feel free to ping if you have PHP question.
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[jgmac1106]
Downes added native webmention support here: https://github.com/Downes/gRSShopper/tree/master/html/assets/js and using the file I sent wants to know if he can automate...or me manual till it hurts way to send webmention badge from there
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[jgmac1106]
workflow would be>You submit a post for specific task, the post will have a link to the task and also a specific tag saying "module 1" >badge is sent back to that post as webmention
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[jgmac1106]
my workflow added intermediary step>student does assignment as post>studenrt writes badge application post as reply to class and includes link to their evidence post>I send back webmention badge to their application
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[jgmac1106]
gRSShopper just a bunch of perl strung together...but the webmentions stuff he added he said is straight from the w3c spec
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Zegnat
[jgmac1106]: not sure I understand the question. He can send a webmention, sure. The webmention just needs a source and a target URL. I assume the source would be the URL pointing to the badge. If there is no URL for the badge, that will be the part he needs to automate: create a page that represents the badge
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[jgmac1106]
yes the url would be the source and the target the student post
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[jgmac1106]
the student post (reply) would be a source and the course would be the target
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Zegnat
If the student uses a page outside of the system, and the course page is hosted by gRSShopper then it would see a webmention come it.
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Zegnat
It could then do [insert magic] and check the student's post. If all is well, it can create a badge with a public URL and send back a webmention.
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[jgmac1106]
that is goal, I am having him add the link to webmentions.io to each page as back up, but was hoping we could figure it out since he has native webmention support in gRSShopper
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[jgmac1106]
that is how it works, every participant has their own blog, they will submit a post with their evidence and a link back to the course page, the course page will show their submission as a mention (if he enables this) and then a badge gets sent back as a source to student post as target...I am gonna be late for soccer practice 2g2 but thanks for help
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jacky
lol I'm really stuck y'all. I don't know how I want to store entries for my new site
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jacky
I was thinking flat file but then I'd use some kind of directory hierarchy and then externalize backups
#
jacky
but then since this is greenfield, I wanted to use something like an object storage store
#
jacky
_but then_ (lol) someone suggested webdav and I was like "ooh I could connect nextcloud to this and have an app in there to make my posts"
#
jacky
decision paralysis :/
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KartikPrabhu
what is database as cache
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[grantcodes]
Haha jacky it's a tough choice!
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KartikPrabhu
I use that for my posts. posts are stored as html+mf2 and as mf2-json in files. The "metadata" is then cachced into a database
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[tantek]
wat. webdav is a protocol not a storage format.
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KartikPrabhu
also that ^ (I think)
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jacky
right using webdav to communicate to whichever storage system I'd want
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[tantek]
jacky what's the usecase for an "object storage store"?
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jacky
like webdav -> (own|next)cloud
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KartikPrabhu
what is object storage
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Loqi
Object storage is a storage mechanism that manages data as objects as opposed to files https://indieweb.org/Object_storage
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KartikPrabhu
<shrug> still not sure what that is
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jacky
well there's little things like versioning, automated backups, etc that I get for free using them
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petermolnar
KartikPrabhu: upload thing, get a URL-like resource => object storage
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KartikPrabhu
petermolnar: so uhhh files... ?
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petermolnar
KartikPrabhu: exactly, but in the cloud! :D
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jacky
the magical magical cloud
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KartikPrabhu
looks like my website is an object store... who knew!
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[grantcodes]
I just updated mine to some way overly complicated thing, with json stores and database replications and all sorts 😂
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aaronpk
an object store with a built in browsing interface!
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petermolnar
don't worry, soon it will be in the Edge, and we'll be back to Microsoft Frontpage, but now written as an Electron app
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jacky
Frontpage! <3
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jacky
I'm just going to KISS it and make it local for now tbh
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[tantek]
wow that obj stor dfn is useless
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petermolnar
jacky: I ended up with nested directory structures: category/post/[post files, jpgs, index.md]; rsync can sync it fast and well for backup
#
jacky
see re: using category like that, what if you need to move it from one category to another? I know that I will have to do a bit of that when I backfill my posts from jekyll to this
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aaronpk
That's why I stopped using category for my storage
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petermolnar
if you go with a database, you'd need to sync the DB as well, which is either replication (mysql-style) but that needs an always on standby machine or do mysqldumps all the time; if sqlite, it's a file
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aaronpk
my last site did thatband I super regretted it
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petermolnar
I don't move things between categories, so that's not a problem for me
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petermolnar
I have a redirect category, with textfiles, that contain a url in them
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[tantek]
uh. it's bad design to structure storage based on any user entered/visible string
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[tantek]
like a category or a slug
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petermolnar
so I'd move the article, and put a redirect to redirect the previous
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aaronpk
Yep also why my slugs are not part of the storage location
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[tantek]
same. but they are in WordPress!
#
[tantek]
(and Known 😭)
#
KartikPrabhu
and my site :P
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petermolnar
while I agree from a sw engineering point, I disagree from a personal perspective: this is how I actually store my things
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gRegorLove
me four! (re: slugs)
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petermolnar
yes, renaming sucks, but it will need a redirect anyway to keep old urls
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aaronpk
petermolnar: have you seen how i handle redirecting the slug? It's all automatic. Take any of my posts and change the slug to whatever and it'll redirect to the canonical
#
[tantek]
same same. that's how I designed my permalink URLs since day 1
#
[tantek]
day 1 of Falcon that is
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aaronpk
I like that I can change the slug easily, or more often I add a slug to a post that didn't previously have one
#
petermolnar
aaronpk: I have not, but I do want to be able to navigate my "site" with a mere file browser :)
#
petermolnar
I have not [seen it]
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KartikPrabhu
that ^^ is why I use slugs too
#
KartikPrabhu
I remember the post slug more easily than some other thing
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KartikPrabhu
this conv. so sidetracked fast !! :P
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aaronpk
The one downside is that when I browse the files I don't know what post is inside https://indieweb.org/p3k#Folder_Structure
#
aaronpk
but so far the benefits have outweighed that drawback
#
sknebel
that annoys me a bit too. although maybe the better answer is to not browse the files so much. or I guess I could add another layer of symlinks, that seems to be my blog systems answer to nearly everything
#
[tantek]
THIS: "it may be inadvertently truncated (like in email, or in IRC)."
#
[tantek]
is the reason to never use slugs as a required part of storage/permalink
#
aaronpk
haha symlinks would be fun
#
[tantek]
because unless you make some sort of smart redirector thing that does pattern matching, it's going to result in a bunch of 404s on your site
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aaronpk
I think wordpress does some pattern matching
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[tantek]
but it fails at additional text
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[tantek]
e.g. some (bad) autolinkers include a "." after a URL
#
[tantek]
or a ","
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[tantek]
and that causes a 404
#
[tantek]
because they were assuming a pristine slug
#
Zegnat
Yeah, definitely nice when routing manages to ignore punctuation marks
#
Zegnat
I should probably built that in mine.
#
Zegnat
adds note
#
[tantek]
whereas if you just made slugs optional, it would work automatically
#
Zegnat
URL_design << Supporting accidentally truncated URLs is mentioned, but some URLs may have [https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-10-10#t1539205141722300 additional text] like punctuation marks.
#
Loqi
ok, I added "Supporting accidentally truncated URLs is mentioned, but some URLs may have [https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-10-10#t1539205141722300 additional text] like punctuation marks." to the "See Also" section of /URL_design https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=52733&oldid=52732
#
Zegnat
Note for everyone ;)
#
Loqi
[[tantek]] but it fails at additional text
#
Zegnat
[tantek], that still depends on the URL parser. I think my old blog engine doesn’t do slugs at all, only blog IDs. But if that ID accidentally ends on a period I am not sure it’ll accept it.
#
Zegnat
So just not having slugs or having optional slugs doesn’t mean additional text can’t hurt
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[tantek]
Zegnat, already added inline. See meta 🙂
#
[tantek]
(now that all our wiki edits go there :D)
#
Zegnat
https://licit.li/5ae99cc52af2b. - fails (if you include the period) :(
#
@fluffy
Hey #indieweb folks! My Atom/RSS to WebSub/WebMention bridge is almost ready for use! Check it out at http://github.com/PlaidWeb/Pushl The docs need a lot of work but the basic functionality is there.
(twitter.com/_/status/1050130370232893442)
#
[grantcodes]
Ooh I got twitter syndication deletion working now 😄 If I delete / unpublish a post from my micropub endpoint it will automatically remove twitter copies. One less reason to ever visit twitter
#
gRegorLove
whoa, nice!
#
[tantek]
grantcodes++ awesome!
#
Loqi
grantcodes has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (32 in all channels)
#
[tantek]
what is POSSE delete?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "POSSE delete" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "POSSE delete is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
[tantek]
POSSE delete is /POSSE#Delete
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[tantek]
grantcodes, add yourself as an example there ^^^ you may be the first person who has actually implemented this!
#
[tantek]
not sure if aaronpk or benwerd has implemented POSSE delete yet
#
[grantcodes]
Aha I was looking on the delete page
#
[tantek]
delete << POSSE delete
#
[tantek]
oh no did Loqi redirection ignore the fragment?
#
[grantcodes]
Now I have it for twitter I'll see if I can get it working for instagram too
#
Zegnat
Surprised you manage to POSSE to Instagram at all
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[grantcodes]
Zegnat: It's filthy and uses an undocumented api, but it works
#
Zegnat
Huh. I thought people were only doing PESOS with Instagram. Did you document your API use anywhere?
#
snarfed
cringes
#
[grantcodes]
Yes, it's somewhere
#
Zegnat
somewhere^{tm}
#
Zegnat
bookmarked
#
Zegnat
should’ve checked wiki imediately.
#
snarfed
not recommended. maintenance tax for these kinds of scraping hacks is awful. but yolo!
#
[grantcodes]
And hey, it may break at any moment but it's no huge loss because it's POSSE not PESOS
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[grantcodes]
snarfed: Would never write it myself, there are quite a few kind souls out there maintaining wrapper libraries
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[tantek]
looks up Bridgy and POSSE delete support ...
#
Loqi
[snarfed] #84 allow updating or deleting a published post
#
[tantek]
grantcodes maybe add a comment how you found this useful enough to implement yourself (delete at least)
#
[tantek]
grantcodes do you return HTTP 410 for deleted posts
#
snarfed
bridgy publish delete is a reasonable feature request. anyone who would realistically actually use it, feel free to weigh in on that issue ^
#
snarfed
the main catch is that people will want to publish, delete, publish, all with the same source post URL, which would take a bit more work to support
#
[tantek]
snarfed, if/when POSSE delete becomes a priority for me then I'll re-weigh-in on that issue
#
[tantek]
and I would be ok with *just* publish / delete
#
[tantek]
not repeated p / d / p /d
#
[tantek]
as in if I needed to, I would change the slug or something just to trick Bridgy into thinking its publishing a new source URL
#
snarfed
as long as your site actually serves at the url, not just redirects, that'd work
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tantek
yes that specifically, in fact would redirect the other way
#
tantek
(from the old deleted slug to the new slug)
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tantek
(I mean that's what it does now, and what I've had to do a couple of times manually when I've screwed up a post badly enough with POSSE copy that I've deleted it and re-POSSEd)
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AngeloGladding
can someone explain why webmentions.rocks provides confirmation for non-reply posts only?
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Loqi
[Webmention Rocks!] Discovery Test #3
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aaronpk
not sure what you mean
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aaronpk
i guess if you think you're setting the in-reply-to and it's not showing up, then you're missing something with the in-reply-to property
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AngeloGladding
aaronpk right when i saw it i knew it
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Loqi
[Webmention Rocks!] Discovery Test #3
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aaronpk
hm yeah i don't think i made it accept a protocol-less URL
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AngeloGladding
i suppose it doesn't fit in this context
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AngeloGladding
you're right
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aaronpk
yeah that doesnt actually make sense, since it's a protocol *relative* url, and there's nothing for it to be relative to in the context of sending a webmention
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