#dev 2019-02-25

2019-02-25 UTC
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@srushe This is a late-night test of posting to my site via Micropub, and seeing whether the post will syndicate automatically to Twitter via http://brid.gy #indieweb (https://deeden.co.uk/notes/2019/02/25/001338) (twitter.com/_/status/1099825581313671168)
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jacky Lol looks like Omnibear doesn't actually generate a state value? https://i.imgur.com/HBR7tRP.png
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sknebel srsly? file a bug please then
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[grantcodes] No it doesn't. I was debating adding state generation into my module that omibear uses, but since the app would have to store it I thought it was probably best left to the app to do it
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sknebel seems fair enough
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sknebel (another option would be to return the state to the app as "hold onto that and pass it back later"?)
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[grantcodes] I could perhaps add a method just to generate one, but it is pretty easy to generate a unique one in js
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sknebel yeah
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petermolnar for people with rented server: https://www.cyberciti.biz/cloud-computing/increase-your-linux-server-internet-speed-with-tcp-bbr-congestion-control/
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@jgmac1106 Good morning #edu407 and #edu307, Can't wait to update everyone on the webmention badges I set up, I started issuing them over the weekend, drafting the next batch for #edu407 now: https://edu407.glitch.me/badges/workshoproutines.html (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/rBHh5) (twitter.com/_/status/1100022374425116672)
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ben_thatmustbeme loqi?
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme: kisik21 left you a message 1 day, 7 hours ago: is syndication in Inkstone working? don't see any options
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell kisik21 I couldn't say at the moment, i have sadly be way too busy with a bunch of stuff. It is supposed to but only if it discovers them via the micropub endpoint
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG [pfefferle]: Hello
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Always nice to see you
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ben_thatmustbeme waves
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ben_thatmustbeme just super duper busy all the time
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GWG We still miss you
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ben_thatmustbeme aww, thanks, yeah becoming Director of Technology means i'm in charge of a lot more stuff
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ben_thatmustbeme including a major acquisition
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ben_thatmustbeme and integrating / building new software for them
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GWG Well, I hope things will slow down and we'll see more of you, but congratulations on your directorship.
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ben_thatmustbeme i hope so too
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ben_thatmustbeme and i totally read that as "dictatorship" lol
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aaronpk same 😂
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GWG benevolent directorship I hope
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snarfed may it last almost 30 yrs, like guido's!
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[jgmac1106] sounds like ben_thatmustbeme needs to explain to his team why they need all the indieweb building blocks someone's health records stack
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ben_thatmustbeme lol, not health records, purchase history
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm going to make mattl redo our internal company hub with something indiewebified though
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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[jgmac1106] purchasehistory? i am sure chrisalrich made gwg build some type of experimental post type for that
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[chrisaldrich] What is acquisition?
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Loqi [chrisaldrich]: snarfed left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: hey podcasters, we don't yet have exact audio file size (in bytes) in mf2. how should we represent that? i'm looking at converting to RSS, where it's required. more: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-02-17#t1550418872983700
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Loqi An acquisition within the IndieWeb is a type of post that enumerates purchases, gifts, donations, (stolen?!) and found things potentially with additional information like photos, descriptions, specifications, price paid, date/time acquired, location acquired from, and condition https://indieweb.org/acquisition
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[chrisaldrich] GWG is too smart for that. He made post kinds plugin flexible enough for someone as simple as me to extend.
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[kevinmarks] I'd suggest p-length as that is what both atom and rss use for the length of the enclosure type
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GWG chrisaldrich, I still agree to adopt anything into the plugin that catches on
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@manton2 Thinking about our http://Micro.blog APIs after IndieWebCamp Austin. There are a lot! Probably not even a complete list: RSS, JSON Feed, MetaWeblog, Micropub, ActivityPub, Microformats, WebSub, rssCloud, Webmention, IndieAuth, and now Microsub. (twitter.com/_/status/1100123277517905923)
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GWG [eddie]: What can I talk you into supporting in Indigenous? I seem to have luck with swentel
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[eddie] lol all sorts of things! Unfortunately, development has stalled for the time being. However, there are all sorts of things I'd like to do in it once I am able to restart development on it
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[eddie] I'd love to hear what you'd like it to support
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GWG [Eddie]: Query for supported queries and properties, query for category list...
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aaronpk if *everything* supported websub this would be easy, but it's a bit of a trick to support websub and also fall back to polling
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aaronpk (trying to add websub support to watchtower finally)
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[eddie] GWG Awesome, definitely those are all on my list!
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GWG aaronpk, which things fall into everything?
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[schmarty] aaronpk: maybe the websub handling should be a different systme?
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[schmarty] *system
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aaronpk Different from what?
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[schmarty] aaronpk: from watchtower
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aaronpk this is the reason I didn't do this in Aperture in the first place
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aaronpk nah watchtower is the thing responsible for watching if web pages change so it seems like the right spot to do that
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[schmarty] but websub involves being told that web pages change, rather than watching for them.
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[schmarty] handling websub feeds means building a webhook subscription management system :}
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aaronpk I also want to make watchtower reduce how often it polls when it knows it has an active websub subscription so they are closely related
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[schmarty] that's fair. there would need to be data sharing anyway.
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GWG How easy is it to jnstl
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GWG How easy is it to install watchtower?
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aaronpk Similar to quill except that it requires beanstalkd and running a background worker
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GWG I can handle that
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GWG I wonder if something like that is worth it for replacing wp-cron
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aaronpk Definitely better performance but does require more ops work
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[cleverdevil] Interesting to see Micro.blog add support for Microsub.
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[cleverdevil] I wonder if [manton] would add support for subscribing to content outside of Micro.blog, and interactions with external sites?
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[cleverdevil] A commercial Microsub service!
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[cleverdevil] Also, wondering if there is some sort of standard thinking around having a client subscribe to multiple microsub servers at the same time.
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[cleverdevil] (So I could use both Aperture and Micro.blog in Together at the same time)
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aaronpk Sounds like a bit of a UI challenge but would work fine. Just like adding multiple accounts to apps like twitter and instagram.
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[manton] [cleverdevil] On external content, yes, eventually. Right now the Microsub support really assumes you are managing everything in Micro.blog.
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[cleverdevil] [aaronpk] I was thinking it'd be more like a merged list of channels, with smarts around where to send requests based upon the channel.
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jackjamieson aaronpk: I'm going to be watching watchtower closely to see how you manage polling + websub. I want to add the same to Yarns but haven't sat down to really get a good grasp of websub yet
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[cleverdevil] I suppose the client could just show the list in a hierarchical way server -
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[cleverdevil] err
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[cleverdevil] server -> channels
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aaronpk The trick is whether that happens in the client or in some server. If client, then you lose the multiple accounts when you switch clients
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[manton] If a Microsub client supported multiple "accounts", I wonder how discovery would work... It's usually one identity = one Microsub server.
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aaronpk which is the way Twitter and Instagram work currently so might be fine
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[cleverdevil] 🤔
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aaronpk yeah you'd have to do it as totally separate identities
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aaronpk since the Microsub server is based on an identity url
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[cleverdevil] Right.
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[cleverdevil] I wonder if a Microsub server could handle it on its end, allowing delegation to an additional server.
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[cleverdevil] Maybe too complex...
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[manton] I guess in the Micro.blog example, you could sign in with whatever.micro.blog for one and yourdomain.com for another one.
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aaronpk I feel like this is pretty advanced use case stuff so I'm not inclined to find new spec tricks to make it work
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[cleverdevil] That's actually a good way to do it, [manton].
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[cleverdevil] Still, I'd want my interactions and such all to go back to my site.
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sknebel clients could also just look for multiple rel=microsub entries
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sknebel or one could make a proxy server that combines multiple ones in the backend
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aaronpk sknebel: that starts getting really tricky with tokens and such
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[manton] [cleverdevil] It could be a client feature, not unlike a Twitter app being able to post a new tweet from any account that has been set up.
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aaronpk but yeah a proxy server approach would work too
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[cleverdevil] Yup.
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aaronpk I still think the Twitter/Instagram model is the best way forward for now
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aaronpk keep it in the client
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[cleverdevil] Its certainly the simplest.
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aaronpk monocle already lets you choose which account to post responses from so it would work there too
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sknebel aaronpk: tokens depends I guess? you can't easily make a token for just one of the servers, but my auth endpoint has no idea about what microsub server a client actually uses the token vor
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aaronpk sknebel: the trick is micro.blog issues its own tokens so a client would need to get a token from it to talk to micro.blog's Microsub endpoint but then it would need a different token to talk to Aperture for example
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aaronpk plus that model requires adding a bunch more complexity to all clients otherwise they don't work like the user expects
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sknebel aaronpk: oh sure, it only works with things that aren't linked
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aaronpk Like for a client that doesn't support it the user would be unable to use their second Microsub server
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sknebel I personally find multiple identity urls quite unelegant, but it's easier in many ways too
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aaronpk whereas the totally separate model means at the very least the user can log out and log in as the other account if the client doesn't support adding multiple accounts
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GWG Can one Microsub server query another?
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sknebel sure it could. needs a flow to get a token, but then it can
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aaronpk also keep in mind the use cases here. For the most part people will be doing this when they already have multiple identities like a podcast website and a work website and a personal website
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sknebel e.g. my inoreader bridge does OAuth to inoreader, and just pushes a login link as a post in the notifications channel if a new token is needed
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aaronpk hah that's clever
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[eddie] Yeah, I think multiple login identities is the way to go
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[eddie] I have support in Indigenous for iOS for logging in to multiple users, each with their own Micropub/sub account. Although there's a bug in the channel listing so thankfully no one is really doing this yet
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GWG So does Indigenous for Android
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[eddie] I like the tweetbot model. You click on your avatar photo and it presents a list of all of your accounts to switch between
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sknebel a merged notifications channel could be an interesting option
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sknebel switch all other channels, but be able to see all notifications at once if you want
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[cleverdevil] The only thing about that is that I like a unified reading experience.
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[cleverdevil] Having to switch between Micro.blog and my Aperture subscriptions is weird.
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[cleverdevil] And inconvenient.
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[cleverdevil] But, again, that's a client thing.
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[eddie] I'm confused why someone with Aperture would want to use Micro.blog's Microsub api. I see that as more for people who wouldn't know what to do with Aperture
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[eddie] [cleverdevil] Like if you want to use a Microsub UI why not just follow Micro.blog feeds in Aperture
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[cleverdevil] Well, I want to follow my Micro.blog timeline and Discover feed inside my Microsub client.
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[cleverdevil] I can follow the feeds, sure.
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[eddie] I do that in Aperture
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[cleverdevil] Which is what I do now.
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[eddie] I follow Discover
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[cleverdevil] But, it seems like it'd be less friction to simply IndieAuth over to Micro.blog and magically have everything appear in my reader.
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[eddie] Gotcha
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[cleverdevil] (I also presume it'd be a lot more up-to-date with Micro.blog vs. having to wait for feeds to fetch).
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aaronpk Ehhhh
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aaronpk this feels like an edge case
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[cleverdevil] I think I agree.
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[cleverdevil] (Especially after talking it through).
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aaronpk also once Aperture subscribes via websub things should get faster
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Loqi websub has 2 karma over the last year
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[eddie] websub++
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[cleverdevil] My point about friction still stands... I wonder if there could be a way for a site to help smooth that friction?
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[eddie] I think we can definitely improve on the friction
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aaronpk Better ways to add feeds into Aperture is definitely important to me
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[cleverdevil] Feed discovery, really.
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GWG aaronpk, do you have the nginx configuration for watchtower? I found that helpful in installing Quill
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[cleverdevil] What feeds are available? What kind of content do they have? Descriptions, etc.
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aaronpk GWG: good call. I think it's the same as quill but I should add it to the readme
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[cleverdevil] I'd like to have that for *my* site as well.
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sknebel micro.blog could offer to play "microsub reader" and add feeds
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[eddie] Yeah feed discovery for all sites (Micro.blog included) is something we can do a LOT of improvement on
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sknebel (assuming the issue is that you might want to add a larger group of feeds at once?)
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GWG aaronpk, I see you used a similar config
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GWG aaronpk, also have to look at where it gets the token
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aaronpk I'd like to see some UI sketches brainstorming how we might make it easier to add new feeds to Aperture especially from things like micro.blog
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aaronpk thats the place to start before we start hacking up new protocols
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GWG I suggested that the next year of, announced at the Summit should be Discovery
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[eddie] Definitely. In fact, a first step would be if [manton] adds links to the user's feed from the user's profile page
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[eddie] I just tried adding "https://micro.blog/jsorge" to the add source and it doesn't find any feeds. You have to know that the json feed for the user is micro.blog/posts/jsorge. I think right now the three best approaches to following people are mobile sharesheets, browser extension and bookmarklets
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[eddie] So if you are on micro.blog/jsorge and you click a "Follow" browser bookmarklet from Aperture, it could take you into Aperture with the options of the feeds it finds
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[manton] It's still on my to-do list to determine what is a feed that should be public. Most feeds are public, but I think a few aren't, e.g. a private Pinboard feed that has a password in the URL.
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[tantek] [keithjgrant] hey we're discussing your https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2296 in the CSSWG 🙂
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Loqi [keithjgrant] #2296 [css-selectors] Selectors for “text-ish” and “button-ish” inputs
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[eddie] [manton] That makes sense. I'm not even pushing that their backing feed is made public. Just the json profile feed
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[eddie] micro.blog/jsorge -> micro.blog/posts/jsorge
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[cleverdevil] It'd be cool if you could IndieAuth with Micro.blog during the discovery process.
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[manton] Those /posts URLs are not actually public, though. Most require authentication.
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[eddie] oh really?
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[eddie] I don't *think* I've ever run into authentication issues
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[eddie] 🤔
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[eddie] Aperture (which doesn't have my login credentials for Micro.blog) is following 10 different users in one Channel alone
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[manton] Hmm. Maybe I relaxed that and it doesn't need auth anymore. I view those as a little different than the /feeds URLs which are designed for a feed reader and have RSS and JSON flavors. (Maybe this distinction isn't important or obvious, though.)
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[eddie] I think I might have pushed for the auth on that to be removed for my Aperture
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[eddie] haha
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[manton] Heh. Okay, this is starting to sound familiar.
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[eddie] Yeah I follow the profiles so I see peoples replies
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[manton] Anyway, back to your point... Yes, more pages should have rel tags for discovery.
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[eddie] I think the /feeds URLs would just be original posts for hosted Micro.blogs, correct?
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[eddie] reltags++
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Loqi reltags has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG I second the ++
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[manton] There are a couple flavors of the /feeds URLs including the full timeline. I'll work on sprinkling in some more rels.
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[eddie] ohh gotcha :thumbsup:
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[keithjgrant] [tantek] awesome. I'll be curious to see what comes of that
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GWG Contributing to a Microsub endpoint made much more keenly aware of feed links as a matter of importance
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GWG My code doesn't find anything on the jsonfeed for micro
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GWG micro.blog
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[eddie] GWG you mean if you point at the profile or the JSONfeed?
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GWG The jsonfeed, I have to figure out why
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[eddie] hmmm yeah strange
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GWG [eddie]: I discovered at Austin that it wasn't handling feedburner urls because the browser user agent I was using made it return an html version of the feed
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GWG So still cases to fix
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[eddie] ohhh gotcha
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GWG [eddie]: I also have yet to try plugging in a granary feed as suggested
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[manton] [eddie] Okay, I added a rel tag for the profile pages... So adding micro.blog/username works in Aperture now.
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[eddie] [manton]++ Awesome!!
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Loqi [manton] has 26 karma in this channel over the last year (64 in all channels)
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[tantek] [keithjgrant] looks like we're taking it to WICG (though there's lots of support for solving the problem)
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GWG Works for me in Yarns/Parse This/Indigenous for Android
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GWG [Manton]: No mf2 though
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[cleverdevil] That's precisely how I would think about it.
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[grantcodes] [cleverdevil] the multi account thing you're describing perhaps sounds a bit like in Gmail (and I'm sure other email clients) where if you are signed in to multiple accounts you can view each one or a unified inbox
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aaronpk Gmail doesn’t do that
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aaronpk unified inbox?
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[tantek] pretty sure Gmail keeps strict account separation
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[cleverdevil] Well, other email clients do 🙂
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[tantek] what, like Eudora? or Apple Mail?
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[cleverdevil] I very much think of my reader like I think of my MUA.
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[cleverdevil] Yes.
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[tantek] a-ha yes. servers don't do such "unified", clients do across servers
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petermolnar Thunderbird has it
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[cleverdevil] Indeed.
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[grantcodes] Gmail definitely does it not
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[grantcodes] *now
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[cleverdevil] In fact, many traditional RSS readers provide this too.
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[grantcodes] Might only be with Google accounts though
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[grantcodes] Can definitely being used, but it would likely be a lot of work that would be used by not a lot of people
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GWG [grantcodes]: I have been having some trouble with Together and my install of Yarns
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aaronpk What
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aaronpk screenshot please
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aaronpk I have never seen this and I have several google accounts
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aaronpk Unless you mean the thing where you can have one gmail account pull mail from multiple imap accounts and also configure multiple from addresses to send from, they’ve had that forever
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snarfed gmail on mobile does this
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snarfed but not on web
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[tantek] gmail app vs gmail web
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aaronpk by “Unified view” I am imagining a view of my inbox that has emails from multiple different gmail accounts intermixed. Is that a thing??
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KartikPrabhu yes
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[tantek] just realized I actually went through this entire exercise (asked/answered all the questions therein) in https://indieweb.org/Falcon#Migrate_to_new_web_host for the 8/10 sites I migrated!
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[tantek] so now I need to update accordingly. or maybe I'll just keep wikifying / taking notes until I'm at 10/10
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[tantek] though it's looking like I'll need to do 11/10 to actually pull it off
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KartikPrabhu you can forward email from EmailB to Email A, and in EmailA you can add EmailB in the "send mail as" setting
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snarfed KartikPrabhu, no, afaict they're talking about actually viewing a true merged inbox, not workarounds w/forwarding etc
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snarfed the gmail app on android and ios does that. gmail on web does not.
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm ok
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snarfed (and fwiw it can include non-gmail imap accounts too)
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aaronpk I just tried it. That’s the new “all inboxes” thing!
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snarfed it's been there forever
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aaronpk not on iOS, this update is a few weeks old
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snarfed it really wasn't in ios before?! you're sure? wow, android has had it for like >7y
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aaronpk Ok months not weeks
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aaronpk https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/30/gmails-ios-app-gets-a-unified-inbox/
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aaronpk October
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snarfed still, ok
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GWG snarfed, by the way, I was talking about a principle of yours over the camp
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snarfed cool!
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[tantek] snarfed, as one of the most frequent nudgers, you'll appreciate this. I've migrated all but two of my hosted sites to a new host, and they're HTTPS now
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GWG snarfed, how would you characterize your principles in regard to bridging things?
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[tantek] (over the weekend)
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[tantek] snarfed, e.g. https://asin.cc/ 🙂
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snarfed [tantek]++
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Loqi [tantek] has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (103 in all channels)
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Loqi Tantek Çelik
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aaronpk Also fwiw I don’t like this at all. I want strict separation between my email accounts
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snarfed aaronpk: it's not forced, right?
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[tantek] still have to migrate my primary site, and H2VX, but getting there.
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snarfed GWG: i don't know that i have bridging principles? i just do it sometimes
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aaronpk There’s still the individual inbox view. You can basically ignore this button
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[tantek] one conclusion I'm finding myself at is that I am going to need something similar to aaronpk's pin13 where I can deploy test / experimental sites as steps towards deploying actual production sites
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GWG snarfed, the idea being that the community has adopted that idea and it has really helped inclusiveness.
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[tantek] so I'm digging through my existing domains to come pick one for that purpose (rather than registering a new one 🙂 )
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snarfed GWG: sure!
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snarfed [tantek]: maybe just subdomains on existing domain(s)?
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GWG So, proper credit
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[tantek] GWG, more importantly, it appears to be a principle unique to this community as compared to other communities. Or rather IndieWeb as community appears to *do* the principle of bridging more actively than any other similar community
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snarfed thanks!
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[tantek] snarfed, we were discussing how your method of putting bridging into action, and implementation, has helped with provide that as a key default mindset of the community
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snarfed ah, sure. great!
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GWG [tantek]: And enjoys doing it. I know I see glee from many when someone hooks a smoker up to its own website
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snarfed ie interop is so useful, don't require/wait for others to meet you halfway
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[tantek] I believe it has provided a source of strength, resilience, and as GWG said, inclusivity, that is rare and perhaps unique
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[tantek] we have an existing principle that I think is an umbrella that exhibits this, and perhaps can be clarified accordingly
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GWG I thought about writing a post after last night's discussion about my thoughts on it
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[tantek] GWG, I think this principle sorta covers it but could do so more explicitly: https://indieweb.org/principles#modularity
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[tantek] sorry, going a bit meta, so going to meta
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[tantek] anyone have thoughts on /question posts?
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[tantek] or has anyone thought about (or wanted to) implement a "poll" post on their site? with suggested answers people could answer with? similar to https://indieweb.org/Twitter_poll
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snarfed (sigh, speaking of bridging, polls *still* aren't in the twitter api. https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/75 )
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Loqi [snarfed] #75 twitter polls (not currently in twitter API)
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[aaronpk] That’d be fun
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[aaronpk] I like the idea of “suggested responses”
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aaronpk the tough question is how to publish that in a way that supports fallback so that consumers that don't recognze the suggested responses can still show something that the person can see
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aaronpk even twitter hasn't solved this
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aaronpk since the options aren't in the twitter API, some twitter clients don't show anything so you end up with weird looking tweets missing context
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snarfed if/when we have extra poll markup, straightforward answer seems to be just keep it inside e-content, right?
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aaronpk that's the same problem with photos, where then rich clients that *do* support it need a way to pull it *out* of the content
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aaronpk I had to bend over backwards to get this to work for photos. if there's a u-photo inside the e-content then I have to go remove that img tag from the e-content otherwise you see two photos
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aaronpk I *do not* recommend creating any protocol that intentionally does this
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GWG aaronpk, I have that problem in WordPress with photo posts
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