#dev 2019-06-13

2019-06-13 UTC
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[jgmac1106] Ooh just open my notes collection on my phone... Either need to do a media query or double check my fr in grid.. Was moving fast as I had to get kids to baseball but happy(ish) way it look
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gRegorLove Longer read I haven't fully finished, but interesting post about ReCaptcha and alternatives: https://kevv.net/you-probably-dont-need-recaptcha/
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[tantek] I'm assuming you saw that from #microformats ? 🙂
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aaronpk yeah pretty much sums up my feelings about recaptcha
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aaronpk i've never really been a fan, especially lately
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[tantek] I'm like, is that storefront? It could be?
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aaronpk please let me help train your image recognition databases
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aaronpk it was cute when they were using it to do OCR on books
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[tantek] maybe they ran out of books?
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[tantek] trying to figure out how/what to prioritize for building/fixing before IWS
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aaronpk same lol
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[tantek] I know what [snarfed] wants (show /responses on posts, at least /comments)
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snarfed 😎
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[tantek] I should capture that
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gRegorLove missed it over there. no, this was via a friend on Twitter
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[tantek] heh
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[tantek] aaronpk - I'll trade you! You "vote" for one of my https://indieweb.org/Falcon#Working_On features, and I'll "vote" for one of yours 😄
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aaronpk that implies that my current list is up to date 😂
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[tantek] I'm willing to choose from any subset list you have 🙂
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[tantek] mine is *mostly* up to date
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aaronpk ok, well my current pre-summit list is: 1) finish my fake microsub server that returns sample/test data so that reader app creators have sample content to test against, 2) add a feature to monocle so you can preview what your feed looks like in a reader, 3) finish creating the list of "test identities" for indieauth.rocks
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aaronpk oh, or fetching private feeds in aperture
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aaronpk [tantek] https://indieweb.org/User:Aaronparecki.com#IndieWeb_Summit_Itches
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jacky is aiming to snag this idea here
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jacky re: itches on page
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[tantek] just found that there is no ernie.js - how is this possible? https://www.npmjs.com/package/ernie
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[schmarty] Bert?
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jacky I just looked - not there lol
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@jaroslawjarosik ↩️ mainstream aggregators would have to provide easy to use GUIs and APIs, I tried all of them and there's no way to use any of them on desktop and APIs are so bad I can't be bothered to create my own client, I'll probably just use microsub at some point (twitter.com/_/status/1139105942447022080)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ I used @feedly but your bundles don't make a public RSS feed. An RSS reader that doesn't generate Public RSS does not work for me. Like others I moved on to microsub readers. I still use RSS readers to generate planets. We need help with discovery through open APIsm (twitter.com/_/status/1139108782003359744)
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@DavidWolfpaw ↩️ Webmentions would be a place to look, if Gridsome has something for that. I want to let people comment in the way that is easiest for them, and not easiest for another company to control them, like Disqus or Livefyre. (twitter.com/_/status/1139133229900980224)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Some info, no mention of webmentions but I know folks have added some, will try to ask folks to update wiki with examples: https://indieweb.org/Netlify (twitter.com/_/status/1139133967058292736)
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jgmac1106[m] grantcodes make one of your projects a to-do list with webmention reminders and possibly Pomodoro timer that sends webmention when time expires,
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jgmac1106 jee[m] I could never get bridgy fed to work either. I always time out, my best guess is somethign with my shared host or the IP address was flagged my some service and I don’t have the inclination to even try to unravel that mess
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ I know I have to assign a grade but I went with a dichotomous approach since this is teacher ed..I NEED everyone to leave with full understanding, thus the webmention badges approach Will fully admit building out this infastructure and doing it all by hand ate into my time (twitter.com/_/status/1139167670253838336)
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Swedneck_ !discord bridge 475789330380488707/588731025547591690
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jmac Hello friends. Today I'm looking at "quotation"-type webmentions, after observing that my blog (which uses my own IndieWeb code libraries) presented via-Bridgy quote-tweets as generic mentions, which is not what I want.
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jmac The MF2 structure of a live example is here: https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbrid-gy.appspot.com%2Fpost%2Ftwitter%2FJmacDotOrg%2F1131928271753363457 My library doesn't recognize this as a quotation because the value of its `quotation-of` property is a URL in twitter.com, and my blog (quite reasonably) shrugs at that.
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Loqi [brian wisti] The book summary was good but the reminder in-post and in-thread about Indieweb & webmentions is what caught my attention.
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jmac *However* I see that there is also a `mention` property, whose value is a URL within my blog! I take it that it means "This is a mention of *this* URL, even though it's quoting this other thing." I haven't encountered this practice before. So my first question is: Is this a documented standard, or is it something ad-hoc Bridgy is doing?
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aaronpk I don't think anybody does anything special with the "mention" property
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jmac So its use here is likely a Bridgy-ism? (Realizing Snarfed just left, haha)
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aaronpk Normally a webmention receiver will look at the page for the link, and *then* enhance it with data from the parsed mf2. Since "mention" has no specific meaning, there's no enhanced display if that property is encountered, so it doesn't really add anything
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aaronpk in other words, a page with no mf2 would show up as a comment the same as a page with mf2 and the "mention" property
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aaronpk (other than the post content and author of course)
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jmac That's how my blog works now; it treats like as a generic mention, except with the added ugliness that the presence of a valid p-name *and* a valid e-content, containing the same values, means that it prints the tweet's content twice. (But that's a side issue)
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jmac What I really *want* is for it to say "Aha, this is a reply from twitter that happens to be implemented as a quote-tweet" and then do something presentationally appropriate
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aaronpk What do you want that display to be? Because I haven't figured it out for me yet
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jmac And the right way to do that is to have my library check for the presence of p-mention. And if that's a quirk of Bridgy, then so be it, because Bridgy is a 900-pound webmention gorilla. :)
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aaronpk I think bridgy includes "mention" in more than just this case? Not sure
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jmac I'd like to just treat it as if it were a reply, honestly.
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aaronpk bridgy doesn't do "quotation-of"?
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jmac It does!
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jmac See that example I pasted in. The value of quotation-of is a URL in twitter, and my blog goes "OK, well, I don't care about that" and so considers it a generic mention.
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aaronpk Is that the URL of your POSSEd copy?
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jmac Yes.
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aaronpk Aha, there's your link then
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jmac Hmm interesting.
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aaronpk your site should know about that URL already
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jmac Yeah, that's indeed something I'm missing.
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aaronpk so it can make the connection between that and your original post
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jmac So a fully functional POSSE system should know where it has syndicated to, eh?
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aaronpk Now it's possible that bridgy should maybe also include your canonical url in that quotation-of since bridgy also does know that
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aaronpk yes it should! So that you can link to your POSSE copy on your posts
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jmac The canonical URL is what it's putting in p-mention. :) (Which AFAICT isn't in other Bridgy mention documents, e.g. it doesn't bother putting a p-mention in likes or reposts.)
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aaronpk That sounds like a good issue to file on bridgy :-)
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aaronpk Seems like it would make more sense to put it in the quotation-of rather than as the mention property
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jmac That makes sense. I'll go bring that to mr. snarfed. Thanks for helping me think it through
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jmac Ha, it looks like my on-post links to Twitter are already properly marked up with u-syndication, even though I have zero memory of doing that. Way to go, past me
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aaronpk Nice
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jmac So, that brings up an interesting question. Right now, when my webmention library does its checks to see if a mention targeting a certain post is in reference to that same post, it checks for an exact match between the value of the "in-reference-to" property (in-reply-to, repost-of, etc), and the post's URL.
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jmac Should it *also* check for a match with any URL that the post knows that is has been POSSE'd to, in every case?
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aaronpk[m] Now I can't remember all the cases here 😂
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jmac Well, I don't think the variety of cases matter, necessarily
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jmac But if my blog (somehow?) gets a webmention declaring a like-of of some off-site URL that it's been POSSE'd to, should it treat that as a like that it itself received?
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aaronpk i'm trying to rememebr whether anything besides bridgy does things like this right now
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aaronpk so the webmention would still need to have a link to your actual post, otherwise it will get rejected by the webmention verification
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jmac Bridgy makes it a moot point by aiming the like at the canonical post, of course
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jmac Right... Bridgy is weird about quotations, and quotations only, by setting the quotation-of value to the POSSE'd tweet, but then adding a "mention" property with the canonical URL in it, so that the webmention's receiver doesn't toss it out as invalid. Gosh
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jmac (At least I think that's why it's there? argh)
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jmac You know what? I am starting to feel like Bridgy might not want to use quotations at all here. Instead, it should treat quote-tweets as in-reply-to with supplied reply-context.
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aaronpk they are distinctly different from replies tho
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aaronpk they are more like un-marked-up mentions
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aaronpk the text of the tweet happens to include a link to your tweet
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aaronpk it's not a reply
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jmac I'm not so sure about that!
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jmac The way I see quote-RT's usually used, they're in response to the quoted tweet, but they want to make a reply "in public" instead of only to tweet's author. And to set context for their own readers, they display the text of the thing being replied to.
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jmac And that's what reply-context is for, right?
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aaronpk they don't show up in the comment thread on the original tweet tho
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jmac That is true, and I don't care how Twitter displays it. :)
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jmac This is a very Twitter-specific case and I wouldn't propose treating all quotation-mentions this way, or anything. But thinking it through (and having learned about reply-context mentions here only the other day, haha), this suddenly strikes me as something to consider
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aaronpk "quotation-of h-cite" is definitely the most appropriate markup IMO
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jmac Well, yes... a reply might say "I agree with you" and a quote-RT might say "I agree with this"; it's aimed at the responder's own readership versus only the author of the thing being replied to. But it still feels like (in-reply-to + reply-context) to me
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aaronpk that's exactly the point, that different phrasing makes it very different from a reply
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aaronpk the audience of the post is different, and in-reply-to vs quotation-of helps make that distinction
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jgmac1106 people use quote tweets all the time in Twitter chats, in fact i didn’t even know what dunking was or people used quote tweets for harrassment or call-out culture (reflects my white maleness but also just teachers using twitter differently
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aaronpk another example: with https://stream.indieweb.org/2019-summit I made it hide replies, since those lack relevance
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jgmac1106 for example often the questions in twittwer chats will be quote tweeted in people’s answers
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aaronpk but quote tweets would be fine there because the author is explicitly writing them for their normal audience
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aaronpk same idea with the micro.blog discover page
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jgmac1106 ahh okay see the distinction
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aaronpk I would hate for quote tweets to suddenly appear as replies
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jmac I get the difference; I'm trying to understand the difference between quotations and reply-context though. Here's another example: https://www.kickscondor.com/comments/two-rss-experiments/
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Loqi [Kicks Condor] Reply: Two RSS Experiments
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jmac This is marked up as an in-reply-to, with reply-context
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aaronpk yes that looks like a regular reply
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jmac But it's also visible to Kicks's readership, as you can see by other people (besides me) responding to it
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aaronpk that's fine, that's also true on twitter
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aaronpk nothing about a reply says it has to be visibly *only* to the person you're replying to
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jmac Man, I don't wanna spend all day splitting hairs here. (Or weaving together hairs I suspect may be getting over-split.) I am gonna soak in this for a while
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Like I said I am going to try and teach myself PHP, actually hopefully working with a CompSci student on a project so will have extra help learning. I pretty much do all my writing in plain text editors but templating the webmention badges will be helpful (twitter.com/_/status/1139186882238189568)
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aaronpk also notice that with replies, the reply context appears *above* the text of the post, but with quotations, the quoted thing appears *below*
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jmac ]\
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jmac (Sorry, cat)
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jgmac1106 trying to free my son’s sports data from the app his coach uses at it all goes to Dick’s Sporting Foods: https://sportstalk.jgregorymcverry.com/pages/2019-season-stats having a bit of trouble styling the tables for readabiliy, Anyone have any ideas where I can add some margins or padding?
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snarfed dennis2: out of curiosity, how does gobo fetch your facebook news feed? that got locked down in their API a long time ago, right? i had to switch https://facebook-atom.appspot.com/ to scraping because of that
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snarfed (asking here since it's a more dev-focused q)
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[grantcodes] [jgmac1106] You will probably want to mainly focus on the td and th elements
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jgmac1106 thx was worried about other tables but realizng…wait..the kid is never going to make and style an HTML table….
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[grantcodes] Hmm I was just wondering what would be the feasibility of being able to use microsub without someone having their own website? It's not really a requirement of microsub, and I'm sure there are people who would like to use it without a website
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jgmac1106 What is unicyclic?
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Loqi unicyclic is a reader that you can log in to using IndieAuth or by creating an account https://indieweb.org/unicyclic
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aaronpk [grantcodes]: yeah at that point it basically acts as traditional feed reader services
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jgmac1106 I thought about trying that for classes for a reader with no website…though by signing in you kind of get one
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sknebel [grantcodes]: their "website" could just be a profile url hosted by the microsub server
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[grantcodes] Yeah, unicyclic isn't microsub though
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jgmac1106 ugg can’t over ride the bootstrap styesheet with the custom css plugin…gonna have to go in and change theme stylesheet
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aaronpk the other problem with using microsub without having your own website is there's no way to reply to stuff then
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aaronpk which again is then just more like traditional feed readers
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[grantcodes] aaronpk: Pretty much yes, but you could still get the advantages of multiple clients with the same backend which is a pretty big one
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jgmac1106 …yeah and even one interested in a microsub reader would have a website…anyone interested in a reader really, not sure I have met the use case of someone using an RSS reader who never had a website
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dennis2 snafed -- Facebook--what a pain :) We can only get "public page content" from them, which isn't what one expects from a feed
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Loqi snafed has -1 karma over the last year
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[schmarty] lol
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[schmarty] ++ and -- are triggers for our local bot Loqi to add and remove karma
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snarfed dennis2: ah yeah. nope it's not. feel free to look at how https://github.com/snarfed/facebook-atom/blob/master/cookie.py scrapes m.facebook.com if you're interested...but it requires the user's cookie, which is horrible terrible no good very bad
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dennis2 snafed++
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dennis2 :)
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[grantcodes] aaronpk: Definitely true that micropub + microsub is a much nicer system. But readers should be functional without micropub anyway as it is not a guarantee
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aaronpk yeah, i just don't think it's a very good story to sell without that
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[grantcodes] Maybe not but it might be a more compelling entry point than setting up your own website
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aaronpk i think there's an opportunity for a service that provides a static profile page to act as your sign-in URL which can also host replies for you so that replies from the reader work
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aaronpk kind of like a trimmed-down micro.blog when you think about it
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[grantcodes] That is probably along the lines of what I was thinking as a possibility, and what sknebel mentioned.
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[grantcodes] Would be pretty neat just to have a service that anyone could just log into and it would give them a url with at least indieauth and a microsub server setup
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aaronpk actually wouldn't be a huge stretch to turn Aperture into that. I don't wanna do that myself, but it would be a solid starting point
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[grantcodes] Then doubly nice if it could have an api for readers to hook into. So people could use a reader without going through all the hoops
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aaronpk i'd be happy if someone wanted to add that to aperture
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jgmac1106 grantcodes++ thanks for the help https://sportstalk.jgregorymcverry.com/pages/2019-season-stats
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Loqi grantcodes has 22 karma in this channel over the last year (37 in all channels)
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[grantcodes] Well would there already be a way of just creating an aperture account via an api
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aaronpk there already is :)
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aaronpk the wordpress plugin uses it
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jgmac1106 lost about twenty minutes of my life by blindly not styling the th, td elements but .th and .td
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[grantcodes] yep, better [jgmac1106] also tr:nth-child(2n -1) is your friend for zebra stripes
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aaronpk right now if you install the aperture plugin in wordpress, it pings aperture.p3k.io to create an account and then adds that the microsub URL to your website
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[grantcodes] Cool yeah the wp plugin did pop into my head
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[schmarty] jgmac1106: i often find it easier to work in my browser dev tool for tweaking styles live. firefox now has a "changes" tab that will let you copy-and-paste the changes you've made.
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[grantcodes] Hmm you know what, glitch would be a pretty good mvp of this microsub profile idea. Should be very doable to make a basic site that can create the microsub server. Indieauth might be the other challenge 🤔
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[grantcodes] But it works with email, and that would probably be enough
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snarfed [schmarty]++ (most other browsers too)
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Loqi [schmarty] has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (67 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] schmarty excatly how I figured out the errors of my ways..bone head mistake..but at first was worried about styling all tables before realizing there will never be another table
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aaronpk [grantcodes]: good point! Glitch would totally work. Should be doable to add an IndieAuth server to it too
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[grantcodes] I might even just fork my postr demo, as that even is a fully functioning site with micropub and everything
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sknebel snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 44 karma in this channel over the last year (75 in all channels)
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GWG Afternoon
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Loqi snarfed has 45 karma in this channel over the last year (76 in all channels)
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[schmarty] snarfed++ great post about breaking down backfeed into smaller blocks!
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snarfed thanks!
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jolvera wow Mircosub is really interesting
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[schmarty] i made a tiny start something similar for an auto-POSSE service that subscribes to your site with websub, uses micropub edit query to check for syndicate-to entries, handle pinging bridgy and getting a URL back, then micropub edit to remove syndicate-to and add syndication properties.
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snarfed ooh cool!
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[schmarty] (the tiny start was very tiny - basically logging in and pulling micropub config. i wasn't sure where to start on websub at the time and realized it would be a bigger project)
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snarfed kind of the reverse of https://github.com/snarfed/ownyourresponses
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Loqi [snarfed] ownyourresponses: Creates posts on your web site for your likes, replies, reshares, and event RSVPs on social networks.
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sknebel Somehow I totally missed that's a thing!
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[schmarty] oh yeah, i forgot about ownyourresponses! so many bridges. snarfed++
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GWG snarfed, if I write a POSSE integration for my site that you don't have, will it make you happy? I would increase it's priority just for that reason
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snarfed GWG: uh POSSE isn't backfeed
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GWG I would go in both directions
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GWG I wouldn't backfeed without publish
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GWG But I am asking in the abstract
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snarfed manual until it hurts :P (manual POSSE is very doable. backfeed, not so much.)
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snarfed if you want to build a new backfeed implementation, hell yes!
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GWG I hurt because I am lazy
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GWG If it is too manual, I will talk myself out of it
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GWG snarfed, I am just saying that I will prioritize answering your call
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GWG After Microsub
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GWG And Post Kind repairs
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GWG And Semantic Linkbacks merge..
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GWG Okay...now I am feeling overwhelmed
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snarfed GWG: aww thanks! if you want to prioritize something for me, feel free to approve https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-uf2/pull/42
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Loqi [snarfed] #42 add h-entry to pages as well as posts
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GWG Done
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GWG Sorry,. overwhelmed
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GWG I think chrisaldrich is right.
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snarfed 🙏
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GWG I need to be exiled again
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GWG snarfed, does merging Semantic Linkbacks into webmentions count as backfeed related?
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snarfed holy crap no but that would be huge
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GWG snarfed, I started work on it
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snarfed awesome. can't wait to see it land!
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GWG But I stopped to work on the Parse This library so it could get into Microsub
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GWG jackjamieson is getting close
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GWG And looking at other people's feeds had me looking at mine, so I fixed a bunch of feed related issues, such as WordPress sending empty title tags in RSS and Atom
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GWG Then I am also the maintainer of jsonfeed for WordPress... updated that too
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GWG And now, because of the changes in Parse This, which Post Kinds depends on... I have to update that to not conflict with the version used in Yarns Microsub... because one was overriding the other... because WordPress has no dependency management
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GWG And while I was in the Post Kinds code, frank opened an issue about a photo title problem...so I am fixing that while I am in there..and the fix needs to be tested...
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GWG So...soon
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GWG I definitely need to learn project management
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snarfed lol. and self care etc. don't burn yourself out
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[tantek] welcome to the club(s) GWG 🙂
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[tantek] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 46 karma in this channel over the last year (77 in all channels)
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GWG I am not.. I didn't touch Indieweb stuff for days
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snarfed GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 41 karma in this channel over the last year (169 in all channels)
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snarfed GWG: https://maintainerati.org/ (https://twitter.com/maintainerati ) also has good maintainer advice
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snarfed eg this was a good recent article: https://blog.jessfraz.com/post/the-art-of-closing/
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GWG snarfed, I would be thrilled with lots of patches to review
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snarfed yeah that was just an example. lots of other similar advice from that and related sites/twitter accts for maintainers on project mgmt, managing guilt/obligation, etc
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GWG Breaking 100+ Wordpress sites...guilt justified
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GWG Either way... not fixing one person's bug immediately, less guilt
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jacky [grantcodes]: I wanted to do this with https://fortress.black.af re: "profile pages" people can use to sign in with
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GWG I also have a large piece of poster paper that must stay in my living room until I use websub to keep profile pictures\h-cards updated
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GWG Different guilt motivation
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GWG Anyway.. here's to tonight being productive in solving storing media metadata from audio/video/photo posts with the media over the post
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[grantcodes] jacky: Ah yeah that's basically the same idea 🙂
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[grantcodes] !tell jolvera microsub is very interesting! Together is a react based reader of you want to contribute to something.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jolvera In Apperture, the Watchtower is part of the Microsub implementation?
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Loqi jolvera: [grantcodes] left you a message 1 minute ago: microsub is very interesting! Together is a react based reader of you want to contribute to something.
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jolvera [grantcodes]: i was just reading about it too!
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aaronpk Aperture is the microsub implementation. Watchtower just polls web pages looking for changes.
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jolvera understood
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jolvera i'm tempted to try a Python implementation
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aaronpk please do!
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jolvera i'm reading through the spec
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sknebel remysharp1: snarfed: receivers that care about the fragment shouldn't be stripping it
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sknebel if a webmention with a fragment arrives, I expect that fragment to be in the sending pages source
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snarfed related, https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/681 , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/445 , ugh
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Loqi [OliverJAsh] #681 listen: support hash/fragment permalinks to entries inside feeds
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sknebel e.g. if someone did comments on individual moments of an audio file, you'd want that detail to be verified
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[tantek] remysharp1 since no one has mentioned it (so to speak 😛 ) - webmentions with fragments are an actual thing, /fragmentions that are a building block of /marginalia
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remysharp1 sure, but for the receiving parsing it sounds like a thing, but not so necessary on the send I think…
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remysharp1 Related, and this isn't public yet - planning to release properly next week - I built https://webmention.app to handle sending (i.e. be better than an embedded form).
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[tantek] no it's a thing for both sending and receiving
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remysharp1 I ran the check on adactio.com and one of Jeremy's latest post has multiple links to a single post
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snarfed cool! sounds like https://telegraph.p3k.io/ , https://mention-tech.appspot.com/ , etc
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remysharp1 so sending would send links for everyone of them
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[tantek] remysharp1, sending a webmention to a fragment is how you comment, like, even *highlight* a paragraph or heading in the destination
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remysharp1 I'd seen telegraph but didn't quite match my requirements. I hadn't seen mention-tech
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sknebel if the receiver is supposed to care about the fragment and looking for it, then you need to send it too
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[tantek] since you can't know if the receiver is supposed to care, you MUST send it too
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remysharp1 tantek: I get that, but the reciever would discover that, prompted by a send.
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remysharp1 (that all said, I'm doing exactly what Tantek is saying right now)
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sknebel the receiver is looking for the exact url you sent
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[tantek] yes
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remysharp1 okay - I didn't quite get that from the spec, but that's why I'm here now ;)
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remysharp1 I'd love any feedback too - the docs were particularly important to me to get right and *easy*
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snarfed it is a good point that expectations for urls with fragments, and multiple urls on a page that differ only by fragment, aren't explicitly specified
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snarfed so they probably fall back to being treated as different urls, which is reasonable, but making that explicit might not hurt
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aaronpk same could be said for URLs with query strings tho right?
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snarfed sure. i leave the spec wisdom/etiquette to you all, but it seems like calling it out, maybe in an example or something non-normative, might help?
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remysharp1 moreso.
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snarfed backs away slowly
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snarfed (eg as a naive implementer, it's clear to me that urls w/different query strings often result in different pages, while urls w/different fragments don't)
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snarfed (damn, didn't back away far enough)
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[tantek] aaronpk, query strings and fragments have an important http(s) distinction which is that one is a MUST for servers to treat differently, the other is not
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snarfed ^
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GWG gets the popcorn
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aaronpk i'm all for more examples to make it clear
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snarfed more than that, clients (browsers) don't send fragments to the server at all, right?
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aaronpk yeah fragments aren't sent over http at all
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jacky oh https://webmention.app looks cool!
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jacky remysharp1++
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Loqi remysharp1 has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG examples++
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Loqi examples has 1 karma over the last year
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jacky perhaps a sign-in with indieauth option ;)
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remysharp1 jacky: I plan to add that, but I was going for lowest hanging fruit :)
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snarfed out of curiosity, why would it need sign in?
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remysharp1 to avoid rate limiting that might occur.
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jacky remysharp1: indeed
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remysharp1 Though, if that's not clear on the token page, I need to make it more obvious! :)
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snarfed heh, that would be a wonderful problem. maybe punt on it until you need it, YAGNI and all
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snarfed ah it's already implemented. ok then
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[tantek] just tried my website and got []
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remysharp1 on the api endpoint or the /test URL?
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remysharp1 sorry, on /check?
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snarfed mine too
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snarfed maybe it doesn't handle h-feeds well
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[tantek] just tried the form at the bottom
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remysharp1 snarfed: what's the website you're testing?
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/backfeed-without-code worked fine though, so i suspect h-feed etc
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remysharp1 yeah, I'm looking for h-entry and if I can't find that, I'll scan the entire HTML
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remysharp1 checking now
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[tantek] and if there's lots of h-entry?
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remysharp1 it handles multiple h-entry's
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remysharp1 check adactio.com for a good example
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[tantek] multiple h-entry's at any level?
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[tantek] my home page tantek.com has many h-entry's but they're inside an h-feed inside an h-card
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remysharp1 I'll check the logic. I can see snarfed's homepage has obvious h-entry elements, but the cli tool says nothing's found - so definitely a bug and definitely a good thing I came here :)
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jacky :)
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[kevinmarks786] I have mention.tech that does the sending and receiving, though doesn't tell you what it found
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[eddie] snarfed: I think this would make you proud! Look at all the green checkmarks! 😁 https://eddiehinkle.com/media/be45d931a3667632e07562d4e30c628e.jpeg
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[kevinmarks786] Great docs!
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snarfed [eddie]++ nice!
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Loqi [eddie] has 35 karma in this channel over the last year (96 in all channels)
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[eddie] It's already come in useful where I change something and it complains 😄 plus, it's magical when I change something and it DOESN'T complain! haha
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jolvera @remysharp1 hey, https://webmention.app/ looks awesome!
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remysharp1 jolvera: thanks :)
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remysharp1 just pushing the fix for h-entry under h-feeds (or other nesting logic)
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jolvera remysharp1: how do you find Nuxt, IIRC you had a workshop on Next.js
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jolvera i might be wrong
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remysharp1 jolvera: I do have a Next workshop and I'm still new to Nuxt, but I like what I see. I found it pretty easy to use, even if I tried to force some Next.js thinking on it. I'm gradually _really_ liking Vue.js
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jolvera yeah, Vue.js is awesome
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[rem] ah, neat - I've just switched over to slack. ooo you clever lot.
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[tantek] What is performance?
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Loqi Performance typically refers to the speed, responsiveness, and initial load of a website https://indieweb.org/performance
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[tantek] Performance << Thread: https://twitter.com/lenish/status/1139251280872787968
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@lenish Want to see if your website is a performance hog? Try viewing it in a browser over X11 forwarding. So many website loading spinners saturate a 1gbps network connection, and for what? You can have a spinner that doesn't. Most of your users don't have a 201[789] high end laptop. (twitter.com/_/status/1139251280872787968)
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Loqi ok, I added "Thread: https://twitter.com/lenish/status/1139251280872787968" to the "See Also" section of /performance https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=62373&oldid=58118
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jolvera I thought Together had a server implementation of Microsub as well
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jolvera there's no JavaScript Microsub implementation currently?
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ you folks would love webmention badges...its assessment in a blog post with links to criteria and evidence. All done from our Own Domains. Why I like it. Word is Bond. Credibility at the DNS level. The value of the badge found in my and institution name. (twitter.com/_/status/1139275046810279936)
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jacky jolvera: to my knowledge, nah
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jolvera jacky: cool, thanks. there's nothing i see in the wiki either.
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[grantcodes] jolvera: no there's no node microsub server. Technically together has a serverside component, but it's all a "client" and the together server part is basically just a bridge.
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[grantcodes] I'm also going to releasing a total rebuild soon that will use graphql
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jolvera Ah cool, I might give it a try to the node implementation. I was thinking python but JavaScript is more fun for me
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[rem] Okay, the fix was done quickly, but getting sensible error and feedback messages was tricker.
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[rem] Now working webmention.app with h-entries nested in other elements, like h-card or h-feed, etc
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[rem] https://webmention.app/test?url=snarfed.org
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[rem] In [tantek]'s case, there's no webmention supported endpoints in the most recent 10 h-entries
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[rem] The CLI tool (with no limits) does pick up a whole bunch of mentions on [tantek]'s homepage though.
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[rem] Oh, and I should have mentioned, webmention.app supports pingbacks by default - so you'll see it discover pingback endpoints too
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[rem] Question about webmention endpoint discovery:
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[rem] I thought I read that if I linked to a photo on Tantek's site (say for example), a mention should be sent back to their site.
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[rem] Or did I make that up? Should a mention be sent if I link an image?
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[rem] Except, trying to find a webmention endpoint (beyond headers) from a jpg isn't possible.
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[tantek] I think the spec allows for it
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GWG And what would you do with a webmention to a jpg?
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GWG As opposed to the page it was displayed
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GWG I am thinking of disabling pingbacks and only supporting webmentions
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snarfed GWG: https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq#Should_webmentions_be_sent_for_links_to_static_assets
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snarfed the spec actually doesn't say what you do with webmentions (to any type), just how you send and receive and verify them
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GWG Yes, I wasn't questioning the spec, just possible use cases
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sknebel if there's a page about the image, it could list "this image is used here, here and here"
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sknebel although hot-linking images of course isn't that common etc
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GWG sknebel, my system has a page for everything uploaded
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sknebel I think the image gallery prototype Toni made at Berlin 2018 hotlinked one of my images as an example of how you could do Twitters "groups" where you can have a photo gallery with photos from different people
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jolvera the microsub-spec says that the implementation should use a single endpoint
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jolvera am not great at PHP/Laravel, but aren't these multiple endpoints? https://github.com/aaronpk/Aperture/blob/master/aperture/routes/web.php
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jolvera they are probably not, but i'm trying to understand the example and the spec
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@OnlineCrsLady Webmention Badges presention: (twitter.com/_/status/1139298897992527872)
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sknebel jolvera: none of those are for microsub, but for the web interface of aperture
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jolvera 🤦
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sknebel https://github.com/aaronpk/Aperture/blob/master/aperture/routes/microsub.php
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jolvera so i guess the microsub meat is here https://github.com/aaronpk/Aperture/blob/master/aperture/app/Http/Controllers/MicrosubController.php
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sknebel looks right, yeah
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jolvera that makes sense, okay, so aperture does so much more than just microsub
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jolvera got it, thank you, sknebel !
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[kevinmarks786] Svgshare.com accepts webmentions to the svg's via a header and displays them on the holding page
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[kevinmarks786] It uses webmention.herokuapp.com
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[grantcodes] !tell aaronpk: So got a remixable indieweb starter on glitch with micropub, webmentions & indieauth. I tried to get it to automatically make a aperture account based on the wp plugin, but I couldn't get it to work for some reason. I get a 200 response, but no callback from aperture
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[grantcodes] See https://glitch.com/edit/#!/indieweb-starter?path=lib/aperture.js
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[grantcodes] Hopefully I've not accidentally created a million accounts 😅
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ This was approach I took. webmention reply from website to feed for model examples and h/t, native comments (so students can keep private) and email for the nudge. Then badges at the end. Did fall behind on issuing as work came in late...that's something that could be automated (twitter.com/_/status/1139315557575143426)