#dev 2022-11-11

2022-11-11 UTC
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[snarfed] Bridgy Fed traffic is up ~10x since a month ago: https://snarfed.org/bridgy-fed-growth.png
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[jacky] wow
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aaronpk is this counting inbound traffic to the inbox?
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[snarfed] all traffic, but yeah that's easily the majority
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[snarfed] probably dominated by Deletes
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aaronpk it's so ridiculous how many deletes are sent, someone should do something about that lol
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[jacky] what do those messages even look like?
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[jacky] is it akin to a webmention signaling deletion?
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aaronpk most of them seem to be messages about account deletions
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aaronpk waiiiit a second
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aaronpk i just did a query on a random delete i got
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[jacky] o.O
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aaronpk i just picked a random recent delete i got and did a query
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aaronpk the first delete message i got for this account was april 6, 2021
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aaronpk i've been getting the same delete account message increasingly more often for the same account since then
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[snarfed] hmm
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aaronpk i now have 12868 messages that this account has been deleted
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[snarfed] searched briefly but haven't found anything about responding to Delete activities
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aaronpk it would be terrible design if you had to
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aaronpk especially for an account that you've never seen before
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aaronpk something is very wrong
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aaronpk all the messages look like this https://media.aaronpk.com/2022/11/10164907-5304.png
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[jacky] hmmmm
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[jacky] so it's like a super-public broadcast
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[jacky] why does it need to _keep_ telling people that tho?
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[jacky] that feels/smells like a big bug imo
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aaronpk no reason
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aaronpk also how has nobody noticed this before?
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barnaby that’s wild
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[jacky] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#delete-activity-outbox has no immediate info on how to handle that
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[jacky] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#security-spam is a bit of a joke too
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aaronpk i mean that's basicaly the same answer that webmention gives
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[jacky] true
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[jacky] it does seem easier to ignore a thin plain-text body tho than a whole JSON body that you'd have to parse to even determine if you'd want to block or drop
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[snarfed] fwiw I'm not seeing duplicates for all or many of my Deletes
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[snarfed] I do get one per user on Bridgy Fed, I assume each user they followed or interacted with, but that's slightly more reasonable
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aaronpk that's a bold assumption lol
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aaronpk i guess it could be for any user that has replied to anything that any of the people you're following have posted
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[jacky] oh yikes
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[jacky] that's actually both annoying and understandable
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[tantek] also seems like a protocol flaw
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aaronpk so i've spot checked a few random other delete messages and i am also not seeing duplicates of them, so i got lucky and randomly found the one account that's been sending me 12000 messages
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[jacky] this kind of makes me wonder if I should figure out how to hint to other services in my setup to block some things after a while (like on a iptables level) to reduce load to the webserver
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[jacky] OH that's good lol
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aaronpk in order to do a deeper dive i need to write some code instead of just doing DB queries
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aaronpk i can't imagine this is the _only_ account this has happened for
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[Jamie_Tanna] Anyone got any idea why my feed may not be picked up by Mastodon? Folks I'm following https://indieweb.social/web/@jamietanna/following (ie snarfed) don't seem to work, it's only tantek that's appearing in my feed 🤔
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@giuseppegurgone It would be fun to build a decentralized Twitter alternative that can be deployed with one click to your domain. - your handle is @​domain - subscribe (follow) via RSS - reply/repost/share via Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1590983095427432449)
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[KevinMarks]1 Can you dedupe the inbox queue by hashing the messages, or does the signature vary?
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[aciccarello]1 I tried to get bridgy-fed set up on my site. Looking at the bridgy responses I was able to define my account name but testing username search and u-like-of webmentions didn't work. I'll have to take another look tomorrow
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[jacky] what is a social graph
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Loqi A social graph is a network of social profiles/identities and relationships between them, either on a single site like a silo, across the web, or in-person connections; more recently, the indie map shows a visualization of some of the IndieWeb’s social network https://indieweb.org/social_graph
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aaronpk just checked another account on mastodon.cc and I've been receiving similar duplicate Delete messages from it too
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[jacky] that's odd
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[jacky] I wonder if that instance itself got some bad code
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aaronpk super weird. i filed an issue
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aaronpk https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/20406
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Loqi [aaronpk] #20406 Mastodon is sending repeated Delete activities for the same deleted account
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aaronpk just got another mastodon.cc delete and i've been receiving hundreds per month for that account for the last year too
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aaronpk ok so mastodon is definitely sending unnecessary deletes. I've now confirmed that the majority of the account Delete messages I've received are for accounts that I have definitely never seen before
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aaronpk i agree that there's utility in sending Delete messages for accounts I'm not following, *if* that instance has sent me a message from that account before for some reason like they replied to a post from someone i am following. but that is not what's happening
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@ffconf ↩️ Shout for https://indieweb.org/ and POSSE https://indieweb.org/POSSE https://webmention.io/ #ffconflive (twitter.com/_/status/1591050880454864896)
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[jgarber] aaronpk: The mastodon.cc admin (the instance my account is on) has been semi-responsive to some issues I was having following accounts on a particular instance. They may be able to help debug, but it sounds like this may be a broader issue.
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aaronpk Would you mind sending them a link to that issue? I doubt it's anything an instance admin can control but would be great to have them as part of the convo
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aaronpk btw youre my only follower on that server
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[jgarber] It’s a _very_ old account (~2017) so that’s not terribly surprising to hear.
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[tantek] since when are people / sites / software resorting putting their actual content ONLY in their meta name="description" and nowhere in actual page content? it's like the exact opposite of what you’re supposed to do
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barnaby does anyone have a write-up or existing code of how to convert output from XRay into “strict” jf2?
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barnaby so far I’ve found two, maybe three, big differences and am wondering if there are more which other people found already
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barnaby also aaronpk are you interested in issues documenting differences between XRay and jf2, or would you prefer that XRay remained it’s own semi-compatible thing?
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@lordmatt I have come to realise that being on #Mastodon is the first time I have been excited about social media - having actual interactions with people - since I first discovered #WebMention. (twitter.com/_/status/1591114497888260103)
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[tantek] interesting mix
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barnaby I think for the moment I’ll make an issue documenting all the differences I find, and a function for converting XRay output into jf2 which could potentially be contributed back to the project
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[tantek] barnaby, be sure to form an opinion about how alt text on images should work in either/both 🙂
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barnaby I have a couple of ideas which wouldn
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barnaby wouldn’t break BC for either already
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barnaby noted them here, happy for any feedback https://github.com/indieweb/jf2/issues/46
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Loqi [barnabywalters] #46 How to make img alt information available in JF2
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[tantek] barnaby++ nice
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Loqi barnaby has 31 karma in this channel over the last year (48 in all channels)
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[jacky] this browser extension is something to consider when we get /follow actions (or /webactions) going for more sites: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/mastodon-simplified-federation/?utm_sou[…]tent=github-url-description&campaign=github-url-description
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[jacky] in terms of prior art
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[tantek] 👀
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[snarfed] [Jamie_Tanna] have you been able to reproduce https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/270 at all? I haven't managed to find anything in either BF or wm.io that could cause it. I wonder if it's transient somehow
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Loqi [jamietanna] #270 @-mention rejected by webmention.io
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[snarfed] also I don't quite follow "why my feed may not be picked up by Mastodon," what are you expecting to happen (and where) that's not happening?
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aaronpk barnaby: my goal with xray is not the same as the goal of jf2. the point of xray is to have a schema that is vocabulary-aware, not just a slightly nicer version of mf2 json
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barnaby that’s fair, none of the differences I noticed so far had anything to do with vocabularies though. It’s just refs vs references and items vs children
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barnaby and possibly some other stuff but I’m testing at the moment to verify it
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aaronpk the subtleties are the singular vs plural of specific properties
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barnaby yep, jf2 allows singular vs plural properties almost everywhere anyway so I’m not worried about that
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barnaby I thought I also saw an example of name or summary being html-encoded already, but that must have been from something else as I can’t reproduce that now
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aaronpk xray does do a lot of sanitization of html too, which woudln't be in the jf2 spec
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barnaby yep, I’m not too worried about that
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barnaby on closer examination it looks like the only differences which would cause me any trouble are those two key names, so I’ll just make a function which renames them whenever I deal with data from XRay
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[snarfed] anyone familiar with how AP handles mentions, eg @-mentions? [aaronpk] have you ever gotten https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-mention activities from the fediverse?
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aaronpk checking...
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[snarfed] me too
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aaronpk none
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[snarfed] BF currently handles them and converts them to wms, but not yet sure if it's ever actually seen one
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aaronpk interesting query
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aaronpk what "type"s have i received..
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[snarfed] ah Mentions are in object.tag
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aaronpk lol deletes can diaf https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/ced3045212f86696ce306a106f6416b0
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[aciccarello]1 [snarfed] Is there a way to drop the www. on a domain with bridgy-fed?
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aaronpk someone implemented dislike apparently 😂
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[snarfed] 😠
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[snarfed] [aciccarello] yes! looking
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[snarfed] what's your site?
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barnaby 86 of a blank type, wonder what they are
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aaronpk i've received more Deletes than all other messages combined. that's not good
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barnaby AP is a very destructive protocol :D
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[aciccarello]1 [snarfed] www.ciccarello.me
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aaronpk heh
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[aciccarello]1 I was able to look up my site in Mastodon with @www.ciccarello.me but not @ciccarello.me
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[snarfed] your site would need to serve the BF redirects from ciccarello.me
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[snarfed] right now it redirects them all to www
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[aciccarello]1 Hm, I need to think about how those redirects are setup
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[snarfed] (and probably your home page, since that's where BF gets your h-card to convert to AP)
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[snarfed] unrelated, silver lining to all this, may be for the best that I procrastinated migrating Bridgy/granary to Twitter API v2
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aaronpk oh no
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[Jamie_Tanna] snarfed I'm expecting that folks following me through ie Mastodon would be able to see my posts - as they enter my Atom feed - appear in their Mastodon feed. I'd assumed that would work from my interpretation of the Bridgy Fed setup instructions, and the mentions of Atom feeds
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[snarfed] ah, right, no, you have to manually trigger posts, they're not federated automatically from your Atom feed
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[snarfed] https://fed.brid.gy/#To%20use%20it
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[snarfed] I definitely need to work on the docs!
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[snarfed] I'm open to automatically federating from an h-feed or Atom feed, but I think I'd want to make it opt in, or at least opt out, and I don't yet have a way for sites to indicate that
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[aciccarello]1 What does bridgy-fed use the atom feed for?
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[snarfed] historical Mastodon interop
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[snarfed] may or may not still be needed
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[Jamie_Tanna] Gotcha, that explains it. Anyone got any recommendations for auto federation of posts?
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[snarfed] well and interop with other Salmon-based fediverse implementations, but those are less common
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[snarfed] [Jamie_Tanna] if your site sends webmentions, just add an empty https://fed.brid.gy/ link to your post template, that will automate it
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[Jamie_Tanna] Thanks - I was hoping to not add links if possible
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[snarfed] understood
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[snarfed] filed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/275
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Loqi [snarfed] #275 Option to federate posts from feeds automatically
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[tantek] interesting. curious how that would work. polling? websub?
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[tantek] I like that it's an explicit step, so posts aren't federated "automatically"
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[tantek] e.g. when I might still be editing them
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[tantek] speaking of which, does Bridgy Fed support some method of updating posts? send another webmention?
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[snarfed] yup
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[snarfed] it thn sends
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[snarfed] orry
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[snarfed] argh damn keyboard
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[snarfed] sorry. it then sends an Update activity
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[jacky] I'm curious again about the 'social graph'/address books/relationships because I would like to do the inverse of "entering all of the URLs of people I know to follow" and instead use the data I can either export or have on hand to have a personal representation of the things I engage with on the Web
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[jacky] I think I might need to sketch out this idea more but I'd want to do something with my exports to have them even auto-build contacts (or what have you) and use that info to set up subscriptions in my reader
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barnaby aaronpk: re xray stuff: documented “jf2 compat not a goal” and added my xray to jf2-ish function here in case other people run into this and try searching issues for jf2 https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/issues/115
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Loqi [barnabywalters] #115 Converting XRay to JF2
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slyduda what is bridgy fed
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Loqi Bridgy Fed connects IndieWeb sites with social networks like Mastodon and HubZilla https://indieweb.org/Bridgy_Fed
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[timothy_chambe] Anyone here want to help Dave POSSE from his blog to Mastodon?
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[timothy_chambe] Would seem maybe bridgely would do this? Or other solution?
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[timothy_chambe] https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/1591168119619584000
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@davewiner I want to hook my linkblog up to my Mastodon account. http://radio3.io/users/davewiner/ Help me do it. (twitter.com/_/status/1591168119619584000)
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[timothy_chambe] If anyone can help, might be good to have him illustrate that indieweb idea in action.
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@jackyalcine ↩️ I've used https://brid.gy/ to do so from my site. I can imagine that something listening to your site's RSS feed (maybe over WebSub?) could do the same with (potentially) little effort. Could help more at https://chat.indieweb.org/ (https://jacky.wtf/2022/11/4x11) (twitter.com/_/status/1591181904539275264)
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ash[m] Ok I've updated the markup. Does the mf2 on acegiak.net/notes look right now to y'all?
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jacky ooh a narrative designer o.o
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jacky that MF2 looks good to me at https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Facegiak.net%2Fnotes
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jacky from a quick scan
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jacky what are you trying to confirm?
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barnaby looks good to me ash[m], only thing I can think of at a glace would be adding timezones to the published datetimes
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jacky this site is also very nice
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barnaby not directly mf2 related (and I’m not an accessibility expert so could be wrong) but is there any value in having profile photo alt text be “[person]'s avatar”? I imagine that’s not very interesting for people using screenreaders
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barnaby and would mostly be useful if there was no textual representation of the person’s name nearby (e.g. in a facepile)
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ash[m] Jacky, mostly that the h-entry and u-repost-of h-cites are making sense
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barnaby monocle likes it, which is usually a good sign https://monocle.p3k.io/preview?url=https://acegiak.net
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ash[m] <barnaby> "not directly mf2 related (and I..." <- Interesting question! Is it less annoying to have no alt text there at all then and then just the name for something like a facepile
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ash[m] barnaby: That was the tool I couldn't remember the name of!
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barnaby ash[m]: my rule of thumb for alt text is “write whatever you would want to read there if the image didn’t show up”
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ash[m] Yeah
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barnaby so say you had a “liked by” facepile which displayed like “Liked by: [ ] [ ] [ ]” where each [ ] is a profile photo
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barnaby replacing those with the name of the person would be a reasonable (if still noisy) alt text
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barnaby and when you have post authorship information which is like “[ ] Author McAuthorface”, having the alt text empty makes more sense than it resolving to “Author McAuthorface’s avatar Author McAuthorface”
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ash[m] Yeah that makes sense
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barnaby btw ash[m] re not remembering monocle: if in doubt, check the wiki ;) https://indieweb.org/feed#How_To_Test
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barnaby which reminds me, at some point I’d like to make a validator for h-feed which isn’t as opinionated as monocle and more aimed towards publishers
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barnaby obviously monocle is opinionated in good ways for good reasons, but I think it’d be useful for publishers to have a tool which explains what’s going on a bit more
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jacky that'd be really handy when I'm pitching indieweb stuff to people
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jacky validators (esp once that can help debug) are ace
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slyduda personally i had a lot of trouble getting started because i felt initial testing was difficult^
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barnaby jacky: yep, as soon as the new version of my site is up and running and I have time for non-yak-shave community projects again, I’m planning an overhaul and expansion of indiewebify.me
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barnaby slyduda: sorry to hear that, I’d be interested in more details about your experiences if/when you’re willing to elaborate
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slyduda barnaby: yeah i'll definitely share my experience when i have a bit of free-time
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barnaby thanks, that’d be great! I’m collecting ideas and issues wrt testing here https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues
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