#meta 2019-03-02
2019-03-02 UTC
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@gRegorLove Hey folx, if you are interested in working on your personal website or getting one set up for the first time, you should join us for IndieWebCamp Online, March 8–10! It's free and a great community that I'm proud to be part of: https://indieweb.org/2019/Online (twitter.com/_/status/1101633275481767937)
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@kickscondor So, as a result of the work Chris has been doing in Wordpress, making it easier to post to http://Indieweb.xyz, I’ve started “rolling up” all the posts by each user on the home page. I’m just trying this to see how it feels. I’m going to try quite a… https://www.kickscondor.com/xyz-march-2019 (twitter.com/_/status/1101634656896778240)
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[tantek] of /generations, continued from dev channel
# [tantek] if you're curious how to answer questions like that, I encourage you to check out Tufte https://www.edwardtufte.com/ and his books
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# [tantek] I believe /generations was intended to be a fairly literal time-based metaphor, not one on ranking or any sort of judgment
# [tantek] "personal domains managed by third parties" grew a bunch in 2016 as we setup a bunch of folks with github pages which barely counts as "managed by third parties", and I'd say we've finally started to reach actual "personal domains managed by third parties" in 2018 with micro.blog managing people's personal domains with zero-config indieweb capable services!
# [tantek] "people using social networks" could be considered to include Mastodon, as each instance is essentially a "social network" in itself. fed.bridgy, Known, WordPress support has helped to build that bridge, but it's still a bit shaky and not fully reliable, bi-directional (aaronpk's personal implementation being a notable exception)
# [tantek] Thus I believe /generations has served its purpose, it helped illuminate the history up to that point (2014), and accurately predicted the spread and growth in two more stages, 2016, and 2018.
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[jgmac1106] Keeps reminding me I want to add "teaching with images" to my classes it is really hard to tell stories in 2-d images but when you do it conveys meaning so well
# [tantek] We can declare victory with the original thinking / prediction / model of /generations, call it complete, and now re-think more broadly about the next phases of iteration, evolution, growth
# [jgmac1106] good strategy Victory!!
# [tantek] interested in feedback and criticism of my summary of where /generations was at and where we are at with it before I add it to /generations#Brainstorming
# [jgmac1106] will take a look, [aaronpk] has led many fine conversations.
# [jgmac1106] I drew a flower one (off topic)
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# [tantek] aaronpk - do you mean my summary of where /generations started and where it is today is a good framing?
# [tantek] more importantly, I want to help develop a replacement for /generations that speaks to the next 4+ years at least. Beyond that seem more difficult to predict.
# [jgmac1106] where are your ideas #brainstorming?
# [tantek] [jgmac1106] just in chat above ^^^ starting at https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-03-02#t1551492667791200
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Loqi [[tantek]] I believe /generations was intended to be a fairly literal time-based metaphor, not one on ranking or any sort of judgment
# [tantek] I wanted to get some feedback up or down before adding to /generations#Brainstorming
# [jgmac1106] made sense, for me I would have just like to frame it around versioning software and not people, might have meant to be time based, but got picked up to categorize people
# [jgmac1106] the problem is the literal definiton on the page refers to groups of people and not an evolution of time...though a timeline like view may be a good reframing
# [jgmac1106] topic for your talk? Good idea
# [jgmac1106] what if was similar to versioning "The first generation of indieweb tools will best serve people who can buils a CMS, the next generation of tools would serve people comfortable with a shared host, etc
# [jgmac1106] somethbut not even generation..that word just makes you feel like you get stuck in a bracket
# [jgmac1106] yeah had same thought..don't want to interupt your Black Panther...that could be where the idea comes from
# [tantek] this is my point about /generations has served its purpose, it has successfully finished doing so, and now it is time for a new model
# [jgmac1106] total creative freedom with constraint of purpose and message, go for it!
# [jgmac1106] I will spend some time loooking at how growth models get framed in different learning spaces..may be ideas to borrow
# [jgmac1106] [jackjamieson] if you come across anythign in your PhD studies let us know
# [jgmac1106] ..of course...grades are useless
# [jgmac1106] I meant more conceptuall models of growth from research...pictures to look at...this is a fun puzzle
# [jgmac1106] the tech evolves, the community evolves, the learner grows, all need to be represented
# [jgmac1106] and each evolution introduces new sets of challenges which may case greater adaptation and factors to evolve....now I need to hike...finally going snow..habve a purpose for the snow shoes tomorrow
# [jgmac1106] FYI the generation model seems to have standing in the field that predates the web: http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/47763/evolutionarybeha00bone.pdf;sequence=1
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# [jgmac1106] yet the paper this paper cited used the word "generation" for "idea generation" and not the generation cycle: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/1928/SWP-0935-03119476.pdf?sequence=1&origin=publication_detail
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boffosocko.com edited /IndieWeb_for_business (+480) "article: Why Founders Should Start With a Website, Not a Mobile App; fix redlink" (view diff)
# [jgmac1106] this paper is quite good (on skim) idea of systems innovations and having to start with values (like our principles) http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/handle/1871/23631/189194.pdf?sequence=1
# [jgmac1106] could Innovation be the metaphor? Technology innovations, community innovations, personal innovations..starting to sound a lot like Actor Theory now...okay time to call it quits before I stay up till 4 in the morning playing with metaphors
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[jackjamieson] Thanks for the reading suggestions jgmac1106
# [jgmac1106] jackjamieson..not vetted, just finding them...this idea of "systems innovations" seems to be new in the sociotechnical systems literature
# [jgmac1106] I will ask the XMCA listserv tomorrow as well...they may know of people doing this work..want to look at some "third space" literature
# [jackjamieson] I don’t read a lot that’s explicitly about growth, but maybe a couple related concepts…
# [jgmac1106] not sure tantek isn't my field but seems like we aren't only one's looking to replace generations as a metaphor
# [jgmac1106] [jackjamieson] doesn't have to be about growth..thats my teacher bias shining through, have complete freedom to rething gernaertions model;
# [jgmac1106] so now we all have to go read: G. Lakoff & M. Johnson, Metaphors We Live By (Chicago, IL, University of Chicago Press, 1980)
# [jgmac1106] i really love that book
# [jackjamieson] First, the history of technological diffusion is filled with examples of well-meaning westerners trying to convince people in developing countries to use western technologies. And it rarely works out because there’s an implicit bias that the western technology is newer and better, but in fact it often has a poor fit with local needs
# [jackjamieson] I don’t think anyone here intends that attitude, but the generations metaphor has a risk of coming across like generation 1 bestows their advanced knowledge onto their juniors. I haven’t been following this whole discussion about generations, but that’s my understanding of the problem
# [jackjamieson] To that effect, Lilly Irani has done some great work trying to decenter assumptions about computing
# [jgmac1106] yes, what was supposed to be a description of where the technology was and the intended audience at a given time became to be understood as a way to quantify skills of people
# [jackjamieson] This makes me think Irani (and others) work on post-colonial computing : http://www.academia.edu/download/43835520/Postcolonial_Computing_STHV2010.pdf
# [jgmac1106] plus...it comes of elitist...generation 1 best talking to generation 2...they would have no idea how to talk to a generation 4 person about DNS...
# [jgmac1106] dead link do you have title....have you seen my work on how HTML/CSS first approach best for decolonizing OER?
# [jackjamieson] Basically, they identify examples where local computing cultures are conventionally understood as inferior, and explain how those ‘inferior’ models are often actually very well suited to a local contexts
# [jackjamieson] Philip, K., Irani, L., & Dourish, P. (2012). Postcolonial computing: A tactical survey. Science, Technology & Human Values, 37(1), 3–29. https://doi.org/10.1177/0162243910389594
# [jackjamieson] I haven’t seen that HTML/CSS work - can you send?
# [jackjamieson] Applied to /generations, the lesson I would take from post-colonial computing is to look closely at how and why those subsequent generations do things the way they do. IndieWeb’s ethos of UX before plumbing does this, but it doesn’t come across in the generations model
# [jackjamieson] That was a long way of saying I agree that the generations metaphor has some problems 🙂
# [jgmac1106] jackjamieson++
# [jgmac1106] its hard as I don't want to be the Westerner suggesting hey "do this" that is the exact opposite of decolonization of global south
# [jgmac1106] started as a podcast response to #OER article https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/28/2toponder-episode-24-decolonizing-oer-with-html-indieweb
# [jackjamieson] So, from that perspective, the one-way diffusion of /generations 1>2>3>4 could be a stumbling block, so I imagine post-colonial computing would suggest a metaphor in which diffusion flows in all directions
# [jgmac1106] yes the bidirectional is key, as new groups bring new skill sets and expanded use introduces new problems!
# [jackjamieson] And new solutions
# [jgmac1106] I have sketches where I have an equal size triangle on the other side trying to represent this...couldn't put it into words, clarified it for me....as you said new solutions
# [jgmac1106] anyways I will persue the learning sciences over next few days, with a focus on CHART and Actor Theory, looking at these models..you know the STS literature way better than me
# [jgmac1106] Schmarty knows somebody who studies HCI, he might be able to ask for insight
# [jgmac1106] off to bed
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# [jackjamieson] Sounds good, I’ll be away from IRC most of the weekend but I’ll be thinking about this
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# [jackjamieson] Maybe useful, Irani and Silberman’s Turkopticon project reflects some of these ideas — a service through which Amazon Mechanical Turk workers can post reviews of requesters: https://turkopticon.ucsd.edu/
# [jackjamieson] And they’ve reflected on some of the challenges of maintaining Turkopticon - Irani, L. C., & Silberman, M. S. (2016). Stories We Tell About Labor: Turkopticon and the Trouble with “Design.” In Proceedings of the 2016 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (pp. 4573–4586). New York, NY, USA: ACM. https://doi.org/10.1145/2858036.2858592
# [jackjamieson] Might be skewing away from /generations a bit, but I’ll see if I can think it through a bit this week
# [tantek] Good insights [jackjamieson] - you might not have seen the previous conversation thread here I framed /generations as having been "completed" per its original purpose, and thus acknowledging that an open re-analysis is warranted https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-03-02#t1551493878916300
# Loqi [[tantek]] this is my point about /generations has served its purpose, it has successfully finished doing so, and now it is time for a new model
# [tantek] I prefer that framing, rather than the implicit assumptions that we must stick with /generations until proven otherwise, and thus obviously point out its problems with where we're at (that line of reasoning is a bit of an implied strawman, so I'm going to choose to reject it)
# [jackjamieson] [tantek] I agree with that assessment. The generations concept did help me to situate myself when I first learned about IndieWeb, but I think an open re-analysis can be helpful
# [tantek] I literally think we can consider /generations done and successful for its purposes, and must rethink our next forecasting / growth model
# [jackjamieson] I think I might be retreading past discussions that I missed, but (1) What purpose was achieved with generations, and (2) What would be the different purpose of a new /growth model?
# [tantek] re: (1), see https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-03-02#t1551492667791200 and subsequent 4 lines
# Loqi [[tantek]] I believe /generations was intended to be a fairly literal time-based metaphor, not one on ranking or any sort of judgment
# [jackjamieson] Got it, I’d been looking at /generations and thinking of all the work left to be done, but if there’s been implementations at every generation, that provides a good foundation for a fresh analysis
# [jackjamieson] But to pile on a bit more, the first thing I did when I first read /generations was try to place myself (as maybe a gen 1.5), then implicitly track my “progress” as my skills improved. Pretty much the opposite of what was intended!
# [jackjamieson] Which I think was probably because I felt like I was an outsider becoming an IndieWeb person, so latched on to a convenient metric
# [tantek] yes /generations worked well to help new folks enter, but not as a place to look at iteratively one you had "joined" the community (that was never the intent)
# [tantek] IndieMark serves more of that kind of purpose though it too needs updating to reflect present feature patterns (doesn't really need a reframing though, the way /generations does)
# [jackjamieson] I don’t know if that’s a common experience or just mine. In my case I feel like I had to learn a lot of technical skills to be able to achieve what I wanted, so I first looked at /generations aspirationally. So even thought that wasn’t what was intended, it was actually useful in my case
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# tantek.com edited /Events (+260) "expand dfn, see also other uses, IWC DUS registration" (view diff)
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@EricaJoy in talking about this w/ @cap, i realized what i’m looking for. i want the iphone of self hosted blogging software: simple, intuitive, beautiful, & just works. i do not want the android of blogging software: can be great if you fiddle the right bits & find the right theme, etc. (twitter.com/_/status/1101361880180830208)
# [tantek] She's right, and the points in that tweet are key insights to inform whatever growth model we come up with replace /generations
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loqi.me edited /Perl (+350) "[tantek] added "IndieWeb Examples: https://twitter.com/timbray/status/1101368525589893121" to "See Also"" (view diff)
# loqi.me edited /Glitch (+349) "[tantek] added "CEO Anil Dash dogfoods Glitch himself with his personal site: https://twitter.com/anildash/status/1101212350403751936" to "See Also"" (view diff)
# [tantek] Wow so many responses in that thread that completely ignored the "do not want the android of bloging [sic] software" in the original post! https://twitter.com/EricaJoy/status/1101204810290745345
# @EricaJoy do i have to put my writing back on my website now? is there a self hosted alternative to wordpress that's pretty (well designed), feature rich, and easy to use? (twitter.com/_/status/1101204810290745345)
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[kevinmarks] Is this a kind of personas exercise?
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# [jgmac1106] you mean the answer to I want "just works" isn't well you need to fire up your machine and write a CMS?
# [jgmac1106] I suggested microdotblog as that clearly fits the model
# [jgmac1106] need to figure out how to describe that with micropub clients you don't really even have to touch your CMS
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jacky GetTogether << https://gettogether.community
# Loqi ok, I added "https://gettogether.community" to a brand new "See Also" section of /GetTogether https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=57602&oldid=57600
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# [jgmac1106] !tell eddie this snow storm may mess up my availability next weekend, basketball game got delayed, need my son to lose so they don't make championships next week..if they win will be out some on Saturday or Sunday
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@jgmac1106 IndieWebCamp Online Just 7 Days Away: https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/03/02/indiewebcamp-online-just-7-days-away (twitter.com/_/status/1101815879036268545)
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[schmarty] Good morning meta! I missed some discussion last night re: web vs USB!
# [jgmac1106] adafruit...maybe that is the example it is hackable hardware
# [schmarty] There's a lot that can be done before you need to get manufacturer and device IDs, which is the major reason I can think of that you'd need to join any org related to it
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# [jgmac1106] Ir was a food discussion but I think I fall in the usb metaphor doesn't work for the web in the context, close and useful....
# [schmarty] Adafruit and others sell many devices that are designed to let you "do things" over USB, because USB defines lots of profiles out of the box
# [jgmac1106] [jackjamieson] discussion about the need fro bi-direction in any conceptual model was my big take away
# [schmarty] Keyboard emulation, disk drive emulation, midi and other event-driven systems that work over USB
# [schmarty] I am saying it maps better than the discussion above would suggest
# [jgmac1106] i meant the entire maker hacker ethos...in terms of using a hardware metaphor rather than the USB drive as the metaphor
# [schmarty] I don't think anyone brought up a USB drive as a metaphor
# [jgmac1106] yes that was the discussion, nobody brought up USB as hardware
# [jgmac1106] it was usb users are like gen3/4 it just works, they will never want to build a usb
# [schmarty] But USB as a standard thing that has connected groups whose focus are each very different
# [jgmac1106] I was tired I may have missed context, it cut across channels
# [jgmac1106] once any metaphor gets to standards the conversation becomes more literal and the metaphor loses its power
# [schmarty] Standards groups exist for USB, yes. But there are also lots of manufacturers that build from scratch on what those groups publish. And some parts of USB are so common they become programmable by people who aren't conscious of the specs. And any of those devices might be in the hands of a consumer who just wants to plug it in and use it.
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# [jgmac1106] !tell gRegorLove I added an idea for a session "make a weebly microformats template" looking at the mustache partials I think it is doable...Bring a lot of churches to IndieWeb with Weebly, teachers too
# [jgmac1106] [tantek] [jackjamieson] this seems like a good starting point as well Nardi, Bonnie (1995). Context and Consciousness: Activity Theory and Human-Computer Interaction
# [jgmac1106] Activity Theory diagram....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activity_theory
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# [jgmac1106] yeah, just putting there for multi directional example
# [jgmac1106] doing presentation for the Irish Kids Maker Faire conference now
# [jgmac1106] be back later
# [jgmac1106] and look at their pinned twet another way to show a model: https://twitter.com/magsamond/status/927468097736282112
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@magsamond http://theorymaker.info/ by @StevePowell99 = engaging & useful. Thanks, Steve. So far it has gotten me to this here below #teachmeet thing ☟ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN6cXGQWkAADPKz.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/927468097736282112)
# [jgmac1106] basic flow chart of event organizing, not bidrectiona;;
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# [jackjamieson] I did some reading about activity theory last summer. Tantek is right that it’s often abstract, so there’s some work required to apply it to IndieWeb
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@swentel Exploring posting geocaches with Indigenous, with additional context from http://geocaching.com. My favourite cache so far is in Scotland, take a look for yourself :) https://realize.be/cache/1344 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1101861737551327238)
# [jackjamieson] Some useful threads though. e.g. Activity-centred computing vs. application-centred computing. Principles like UX-first and plurality speak to IndieWeb’s activity focused design, since the idea is to facilitate activities rather than get users to conform to a given toolset
# @swentel Exploring posting geocaches with Indigenous, as a checkin with an additional new log type property. My favourite cache so far is in Scotland, take a look for yourself :) https://realize.be/cache/1344 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1101862743362146304)
# [jackjamieson] Zegnat: yep!
# [jackjamieson] There’s more to it than that, but I take your point
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# [jackjamieson] But the fact that IndieWeb demonstrates those principles already suggests that activity theory could be used to formalize a model describing IndieWeb. Of great academic interest, and hopefully could identify patterns or recommendations with more practical application
# [jackjamieson] More immediately useful, the fact that IndieWeb happens to follow parts of activity theory already, means other parts of the theory might be useful as well. If I find any useful connections I’ll write up a blog post
# [jgmac1106] eddie entire tournament got scheduled today, may just miss demos as their could be team party if they win, that is all. didyou see I sent out a 7 day countdown for Onlien post?
# [jgmac1106] jackjamieson yes activity theory so broad it captures all but I like the focus on bidirectional interaction between community, norms, tools, agent, and outcome...
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# [schmarty] lol well i just pulled a jgmac1106 regarding attending HWC NHV. looks like i won't be able to sit with you to do glitch projects that weekend after all
# [schmarty] i have an improv class sat, another sunday, and tickets to a show saturday night.
# [jgmac1106] no worries! I can /Sawyer someone else
# [jgmac1106] enjoy the show...darn would have been awesome to see you
# [schmarty] we'll get together sometime soon. really need to start planning IWCNYC
# [jgmac1106] yeah Sept filling up, let me know if you want to do Pace again or if you want o try someone with NYU connections
# [jgmac1106] yeah @gwg
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# [jackjamieson] jgmac1106 Agreed. that model for describing all the factors in a single activity can reveal hidden obstacles etc.
# [jgmac1106] tmiller and drewmcweeney already commited
# [jgmac1106] jackjamieson, do you have any time for Online next weekend? Maybe we can run a session on developing conceptual models
# [jgmac1106] both organizing
# [jgmac1106] like I said I do have a house for the weekend, but there would be a dog,
# [jgmac1106] might be better off in hotel
# [jgmac1106] I can do free for you if needed
# [jgmac1106] but I make no gaurantees to cleanliness of house
# [schmarty] [eddie] just put up the multi-city event page for HWC on 03-20. left vHWC Americas out. please put it back if i goofed!
# [jgmac1106] is is there for 3/6? schmarty
# [jgmac1106] eddie are we doing 3/6 vHWC East Coast or West Coast? Like idea if alternating
# [schmarty] jgmac1106 it is there for eastern time: https://indieweb.org/events/2019-03-06-homebrew-website-club
# [schmarty] (haha why did i look at the wiki for you)
# [jgmac1106] "iPhone vs android version " yes but comes with a lot of "go team" baggage but you can hand any two year old an ipad and they can work it
# [jgmac1106] penance, schmarty, penance
# [jgmac1106] perfect!!
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@artlung ↩️ It's a measure of what the web means to me that while my mother was at the end of her life I was choosing to use the #indieweb to share her life and comfort myself. That's the web. It is a bulwark to share ourselves. And to remember. (twitter.com/_/status/1101905639696084992)
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# @jgmac1106 Thinking cognitive apprenticeships and what we see in places using #connectedlearning like #indieweb and #ds106 you see more agentive apprenticeships. These involve both humans and networks but get driven by the learner goals in a community of shared… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/03/02/thinking-cognitive-apprenticeships-and-what-we (twitter.com/_/status/1101907431024721920)
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# [jgmac1106] this is a model I developed to study spaces similar to #indieweb share to try to show other multidirectional models. It begins with self, as in your domain, and moves out to everyone as in W3C standards, doesn't account for evolution of technology
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# [jgmac1106] I really like the second image as a model of how things work
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# [jgmac1106] eddie if you get a chance throw in an idea into the brainstorming pool for online or do a full session proposal
# [jgmac1106] link on functions of innovation systems: https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/03/02/explaining-the-success-of-emerging-technologies-by-innovation-system-functioning
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# [kevinmarks] USB analogy problem https://youtu.be/YpiylFF6sV4
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# [tantek] goodness sakes thread: https://twitter.com/johnmccrea/status/1101744114557628418
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@johnmccrea Opening the Social Graph, @jsmarr @daveman692 @chrismessina @t @bradfitz @timoreilly @Ross #BarCamp https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0oubSZU8AEzSEL.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1101744114557628418)
# Loqi ok, I added "[[Indigenous for Android]]" to a new "See Also" section of /Indigenous https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=57638&oldid=57059
# loqi.me edited /Indigenous (+46) "aaronpk added "[[Indigenous for Android]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
# Loqi ok, I added "[[Indigenous for iOS]]" to the "See Also" section of /Indigenous https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=57639&oldid=57638
# Loqi To read or reading is the act of viewing and interpreting posts or other documents; on the IndieWeb, a read post expresses that something has been read, like a book or section thereof https://indieweb.org/read
# loqi.me created /read-status (+62) "prompted by sknebel and redirect added by sknebel" (view diff)