#social 2015-03-03

2015-03-03 UTC
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shepazu, bblfish, harry, jaywink_, Augier, the_frey, pfefferle, elf-pavlik and stevenroose joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
bblfish, you will not join remotely next Face 2 Face? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17
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bblfish
ah yes I should
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elf-pavlik
i also haven't noticed it when i adde myself first...
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bblfish
ah was looking for that section
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bblfish
ok, done
tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good morning #social!
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tantek
!tell harry you mentioned something about webfinger on the email list "streaming/push "out of scope", was Re: on API Requirements" - I don't see webfinger as required or even desired as a building block for the socialweb. IndieWeb sites don't depend on it at all for federation etc.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
webfinger--
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Loqi
webfinger has -1 karma
dret joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
hi tantek
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tantek
ignores the email list deep dive
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tantek
elf-pavlik: do you support webfinger on your personal site?
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elf-pavlik
you can find there at least 3 emails from harry
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tantek
elf-pavlik: emails are irrelevant. this is the social *web*.
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elf-pavlik
i had it running before migrating server
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tantek
so you're saying webfinger is fragile to server migrations
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tantek
that's a decent criticism to document
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elf-pavlik
mostly to get website of someone authenticating with mozilla persona
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tantek
mozilla persona does not depend on webfinger. only .well-known.
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elf-pavlik
nope, i struggled with getting access to stable VM
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elf-pavlik
it also doen't provide way to get online profile based on email address
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elf-pavlik
i just used it to point to URL with information about me
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tantek
does harry use or support webfinger on his personal site?
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tantek
I dispute "fairly widespread uptake"
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tantek
elf-pavlik: far more people in social web wg have personal sites that use simple h-card or hCard for profile info on their personal site, than webfinger
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tantek
so if we did a poll by action "what do you actually support" instead of politics "what is your wish", then h-card trumps webfinger
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tantek
such "wishful" proposals/requests are fairly ignorable
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tantek
shipping counts, and selfdogfooding on your own site, and living with it day-to-day counts
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tantek
email chatter about it is merely watercooler wishfulness
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tantek
not useful for implementation
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tantek
vote by shipping things on your personal site
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elf-pavlik
hCard, foaf:Person, schema:Person ... one still sometimes needs to get HTTP URL based on email (like) address
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tantek
elf-pavlik: nah, I dispute "needs to get HTTP URL based on email (like) address" - citation to use-case needed.
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tantek
elf-pavlik: and to keep it real, what use-case *on your site* "needs to get HTTP URL based on email (like) address" ?
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elf-pavlik
tantek, I don't feel very strong about webfinger myself, i just understand why people see need for it
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KevinMarks
is Blair's grandma even using webfinger?
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tantek
elf-pavlik: if people are shipping/interoperating *without* it, that's proof that it's unnecessary
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tantek
irrelevant if people "wish" for a need for it
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tantek
shipping counts, email wishes don't
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tantek
elf-pavlik: nope. specs aren't implementations.
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elf-pavlik
during next Face 2 Face we plan to discuss taking *that draft* to CR
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tantek
right, and by default everything in AS is "at-risk"
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elf-pavlik
i remember you *proposed* it this way
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tantek
elf-pavlik: correct, that is what I'm pursuing, because right now we have zero W3C AS implementations
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tantek
it is only logical
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tantek
also, per the desire to minimize security surface, we should seek to minimize W3C AS features
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elf-pavlik
if you think that we shouldn't require and not even recommend webfinger it may make sense to raise it as an issue https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues
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melvster
tantek: "I don't see webfinger as required or even desired as a building block for the socialweb" +1
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elf-pavlik
at this moment most people in the group seem to have ok-ish opinion about using it
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elf-pavlik
and you see current AS2 draft suggests it by using acct: URI scheme
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melvster
tantek: "does harry use or support webfinger on his personal site?" -- does harry even have a personal site?
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tantek
melvster - good q
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tantek
not sure how many people in this group do
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melvster
well that's not actually too bad
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melvster
facebook has some great functionality imho
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KevinMarks
it's not even curlable
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melvster
KevinMarks: what's not 'curlable'?
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melvster
elf-pavlik: that's not really how facebook works
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melvster
missing a huge chunk of it which is the app platform, and also payments
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KevinMarks
if you curl https://www.facebook.com/hhalpin you don't get any actual HTML
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melvster
facebook roughly has 7 APIs
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melvster
KevinMarks: use graph.facebook.com
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melvster
elf-pavlik: kinda, but it's still very early for that
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elf-pavlik
Discovery of Offer
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melvster
facebook have 4 kinds of api -- user / feed / app / payment
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melvster
1 user -- 1.1 add friend 1.2 message friend 1.3 friend request
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melvster
2. feed -- add post
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melvster
3. app (important!) -- 3.1 add an app 3.2 set app permissions
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melvster
4. Add a payment
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melvster
that's roughly how it's broken down the last 3 years
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melvster
apps a such a huge part of facebook
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elf-pavlik
where do you place Groups and Events?
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bret
tantek: per our discussion ^
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melvster
yes groups and events are important these days
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KevinMarks
I mean there is HTML in the FB page but it is wrapped in '<code class="hidden_elem" id="u_0_9"><!--' ' --></code>'
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tantek
bret, makes sense
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tantek
melvster: "groups and events are important these days" ++++
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melvster
KevinMarks: if you want to use curl against a facebook id, go to graph.facebook.com/id ... I like their system a lot
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melvster
it even does, dare I say it, *content negotiation*
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KevinMarks
except mapping from hhalpin to an id is now impossible
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melvster
impossible why?
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elf-pavlik
maybe they just need to deploy webfinger ;D
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tantek
melvster - it's why I wrote up the apparently length / complicated (apologies!) user story for events + rsvps + invitations https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#RSVPs_invitations_comments_to_an_event
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melvster
why would they? would be insane
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melvster
{"id":"1047709463","first_name":"Harry","gender":"male","last_name":"Halpin","link":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/hhalpin","locale":"en_US","name":"Harry Halpin","username":"hhalpin"}
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KevinMarks
hm, api v2 changed so id's are app-local
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tantek
criticisms of "too long" and "too much in one user story" and "smaller stories please" accepted.
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tantek
wrote it up too close to the deadline to break it up into separate stories
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tantek
may break it down to smaller stories in /more_user_stories
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KevinMarks
http://code-worrier.com/blog/changes-in-facebook-graph-api-2-dot-0/ Global user ids have been replaced with application-specific ids.
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tantek
FB has totally broken any sense / chance of shared global IDs for people to use across apps / systems / federation etc.
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tantek
elf-pavlik: if you like webfinger so much, when are you going to re(deploy) it?
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tantek
I forgot the ;)
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melvster
webfinger doesnt scale imho
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tantek
fascinating
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bret
melvster: how come?
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bret
(i don't know enough about WF to know either way)
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melvster
i dont think jrd scales as well as json ld
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tantek
I get the feeling that webfinger is a sideeffect of the (some) programmer culture of "distrust HTML" and preference for "abstract data"
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elf-pavlik
jsonld++
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Loqi
jsonld has 1 karma
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melvster
KevinMarks: thanks for the article, interesting, yes they've given apps less power, but friends still have power to see each other ... I think there was a ton of app spamming that got really annoying for users
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tantek
elf-pavlik: does your website provide jsonld endpoints?
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elf-pavlik
tantek, of course!
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tantek
that's a start then!
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elf-pavlik
curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ --insecure -H "Accept: application/ld+json"
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tantek
much more powerful statement than a ++ :)
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tantek
elf-pavlik++ for curlable personal site and selfdogfooding!
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Loqi
elf-pavlik has 6 karma
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melvster
it's non compliant tho
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elf-pavlik
needs to set Content-Type
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elf-pavlik
i need better templating system to render RDFa from JSON-LD...
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melvster
foaf : Person does not cover documents, apart from the famous tatoo'd person argument, having had the pleasure of meeting elf in person, i can say he's not a tatoo :)
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bret
elf-pavlik: what header should I add?
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elf-pavlik
bret, not you - me
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elf-pavlik
melvster, document?
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elf-pavlik
how come?
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bret
no to get back rdfa, just getting html back atm
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elf-pavlik
i hass RDF in attributes - RDFa
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bret
oh right, derp
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melvster
elf-pavlik: let's not open this debate again, ive been over it with you several times, look at the foaf spec check the domain and ranger
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melvster
s/ranger/range
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elf-pavlik
HTTP/1.1 303 See Other
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elf-pavlik
abstract without /
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elf-pavlik
document with /
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elf-pavlik
statements have one without / as subject!
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elf-pavlik
"@id":"https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper"
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melvster
so you redirect to from the non slash to the slash
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melvster
good luck finding s/w to support that :)
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elf-pavlik
about="https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper"
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tantek
which one is canonical?
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elf-pavlik
tantek, canonical?
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Arnaud
trackbot, start meeting
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 03 March 2015
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), elf-pavlik
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Zakim
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started
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Zakim
+??P3
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P3 is me
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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Zakim
+ +1.314.777.aaaa
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, +1.314.777.aaaa
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AdamB
Zakim, aaaa is me
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Zakim
+AdamB; got it
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB
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Zakim
+ +1.617.247.aabb
ShaneHudson joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, aabb is me
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Zakim
+ben_thatmustbeme; got it
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Zakim
+aaronpk
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk
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ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
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Zakim
+??P11
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rhiaro
Zakim, ??P11 is me
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Zakim
+rhiaro; got it
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Zakim
+??P12
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rhiaro
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
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bret
aaronpk: how did you get Zakim to remember you?
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tantek
dialing
dromasca joined the channel
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bret
Zakim, ??P12 is me
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ShaneHudson
Hi all, sorry I've not made the previous few calls, had a lot of hospital visits etc. Back to normal now though hopefully :)
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Zakim
+bret; got it
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Zakim
+Sandro
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bret
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
bret should now be muted
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro
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tantek
zakim dial fail 1
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Zakim
+Arnaud
jasnell joined the channel
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Zakim
+dromasca
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tantek
zakim dial fail 2
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Loqi
Zakim has 0 karma
Arnaud joined the channel
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Zakim
+jasnell
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell
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Zakim
+ +33.6.43.93.aacc
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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bblfish
Zakim, aacc is me
AnnB joined the channel
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Zakim
+bblfish; got it
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wilkie
Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim
+wilkie; got it
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bret
nice
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie
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Zakim
+??P29
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tantek
is glad he's not chairing today.
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Tsyesika
Zakim, ??P29 is me
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Zakim
+Tsyesika; got it
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
bill-looby joined the channel
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Zakim
+??P13
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Tsyesika
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
Tsyesika should now be muted
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute IPcaller
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Zakim
[IPcaller] should now be muted
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ShaneHudson
Zakim, ??P13 is me
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Zakim
+ShaneHudson; got it
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ShaneHudson
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
ShaneHudson should now be muted
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika (muted), Ann,
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bill-looby
Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim
... [IPcaller] (muted), ShaneHudson (muted)
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Zakim
+bill-looby; got it
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Arnaud
scribe: jasnell
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Arnaud
chair: Arnaud
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jasnell
Arnaud: approval of the minutes 2015-02-24
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Arnaud
PROPOSED: Approval of Minutes of 24 February 2015 Teleconf https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-24-minutes
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jasnell
Arnaud: No objections, minutes approved
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tantek
apparently Google Hangouts app touchtones are broken for me with latest app updated. :(
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Arnaud
RESOLVED: Approve Minutes of 24 February 2015 Teleconf https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-24-minutes
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tantek
attempting restarting comms device.
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jasnell
Arnaud: Next call on 2015-03-10
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Loqi
I added a countdown for 3/10 12:00am (#5647)
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bret
tantek: oh noes... telephone.app works with an Ekiga account
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elf-pavlik
topic: Next F2F
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tantek
BTW - is there any way to indicate meal preferences / requirements for f2f?
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tantek
sandro?
harry joined the channel
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tantek
how would you like that information?
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jasnell
Arnaud: talking about f2f in two weeks in Boston/MIT
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rhiaro
+1 meal preferences :)
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harry
Zakim, code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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tantek
I know we have at least one pesceterian (myself), and vegan.
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Loqi
harry: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 21 minutes ago: you mentioned something about webfinger on the email list "streaming/push "out of scope", was Re: on API Requirements" - I don't see webfinger as required or even desired as a building block for the socialweb. IndieWeb sites don't depend on it at all for federation etc.
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jasnell
Arnaud: first half of first day, AS2, second half first day, API, first half second day, Federation, remaining open
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk++ for vegan
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Loqi
aaronpk has 721 karma
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jasnell
Arnaud: Please everyone take a look at the agenda and goals for the F2F
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Zakim
+Harry_Halpin
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aaronpk
nope just vegetarian
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elf-pavlik
still ++ :D
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jasnell
will not be able to attend the f2f in person, btw. Can dial in on day 1 tho
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trackbot
issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open
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trackbot
is looking up issue-6.
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elf-pavlik
action-36
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trackbot
is looking up action-36.
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trackbot
action-36 -- Sandro Hawke to Resolve issue 6 https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/6 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
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RRSAgent
sees no action items
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harry
is Bill Looby attending?
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harry
it would be good to get someone from IBM Connections to go
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jasnell
Arnaud: Please get input in asap and make sure you let us know if you're able or not able to go
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elf-pavlik
harry i see him on remote participants list
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tantek
trying dialing again.
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jasnell
Arnaud: Questions on Logistics... where are we meeting exactly
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AnnB
I agree it'd be helpful to have someone from Connections
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tantek
no luck, apparently the touchtones between Google Hangouts and Zakim are broken :(
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jasnell
Sandro: Meeting in "Star"
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AnnB
dang, tantek
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jasnell
Arnaud/Ann: Please add directions to wiki
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tantek
apologies, haven't had this problem before.
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bret
maps and links to google maps are super helpful when navigating any college campus
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jasnell
Sandro: give yourselves extra time to get lost
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tantek
Sandro, is there a permalink to the venue?
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harry
The largest problem I've seen is going up the wrong elevator
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rhiaro
lols "50% chance of getting lost for all enternity"
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jasnell
should be happy he's not going, he get's lost way too easily
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harry
and there's multiple entrances
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tantek
rhiaro it's designed like a maze, perhaps for the same reasons as architects do so in Inception.
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harry
it's an *interestng* building :)
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jasnell
Arnaud: What about the Food
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jasnell
Sandro/Harry: Where we getting the funding for yummy foodstuffs.
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ben_thatmustbeme
Sandro, is this the same room as IWC Cambridge last year?
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jasnell
Arnaud: Harry/Sandro to add details to wiki
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trackbot
is looking up issue-6.
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trackbot
issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open
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elf-pavlik
action-36
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RRSAgent
sees no action items
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trackbot
is looking up action-36.
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trackbot
action-36 -- Sandro Hawke to Resolve issue 6 https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/6 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
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jasnell
Sandro: Polycom/Zakim bridge for room
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jasnell
Arnaud: That's it for F2F, please provide feedback on the agenda to mailing list or wiki
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elf-pavlik
topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues
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jasnell
Arnaud: Tracking of Issues and Actions
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bblfish
issue-6?
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trackbot
is looking up issue-6.
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trackbot
issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open
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jasnell
Arnaud: Closing issue-6
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bblfish
issue-15
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trackbot
is looking up issue-15.
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trackbot
issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- raised
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jasnell
Arnaud: issue-15
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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jasnell
Elf: clarify AS2 overlaps with microformats and schema.org
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Arnaud
ack harry
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell
Harry: w3c recs cannot have normative dependencies on non-normative specs
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jasnell
Harry: specifically with regards to schema.org, we cannot normatively depend on it
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tantek
what makes a spec non-normative?
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jasnell
Harry: let's please stop bringing it up over and over
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harry
It keeps coming up on mailing lists again and again
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jasnell
Arnaud: schema.org is a live document
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tantek
why would we want to normatively depend on something that's been developed closed?
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harry
Please just read your email.
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jasnell
(harry, I'm scribing not commenting ;-) ...)
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tantek
even if it is published openly?
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tantek
schema.org is not openly controlled
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jasnell
Elf: How about microformats overlap
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tantek
and no idea who writes what behind schema, no revision history
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bblfish
Harry mentioned that some folks at w3c are working with schema.org to see how the w3c could tie in with it
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tantek
elf-pavlik, every microformats wiki edit has sourcing / accountability
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tantek
and barrier to edit on the wiki is very low
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tantek
contributions come from many people
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bblfish
harry mentioned ralf swick
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jasnell
Harry: keep in open but needs to depend on progress in other areas
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack jasnell
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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harry
Normative means that it has been stabilized so that there is a stable reference and through a process that is compatible with W3C's patent policy
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tantek
harry, by those requirements, microformats specs qualify, as do indieweb specs
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tantek
even if in draft form, they're already fairly stable
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tantek
URLs / references are stable
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melvster
thanks for explaining ...
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Zakim
+ +1.408.335.aadd
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harry
Google has expressed they are interested in a W3C normative snapshot, but haven't done that yet. Ralph Swick is discussing with Guha.
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tantek
feature sets are stable
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harry
Re microformats, that's a question for W3C legal and I'll bring it up with Wendy Seltzer
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harry
Usually normative means ISO, IETF, other W3C specs that are Rec
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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bblfish
I kind of agree there with harry and whoever spoke there
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Arnaud
ack harry
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
harry, I believe both microformats.org and indiewebcamp.com specs qualify for normative references
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jasnell
Jasnell: I agree with Harry that schema.org should be on the agenda
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jasnell
Harry: Will review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats
#
tantek
I don't because no schema companies participate in this WG
#
tantek
we've been over this before
#
Arnaud
action: harry to review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 1
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-41 - Review with wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-10].
#
tantek
anyone that wants schema on the agenda should make sure to get schema companies to join social web wg
#
tantek
otherwise I object to adding schema to the agenda
#
jasnell
btw tantek... that wasn't a dig at microformats, it's just not a "normative spec" in the sense typically viewed within w3c/ietf etc
#
jasnell
Harry: keep it open as a placeholder for now
#
tantek
jasnell: I realize W3C is still learning / figuring out how to link to living specs.
#
jasnell
Harry: we should not have to keep reviewing it every meeting
#
tantek
even if living just means errata
#
jasnell
tantek: agreed
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-15 as a placeholder, recognizing we can't do anything about it until the situation with schema.org is resolved
#
bblfish
well it makes sense to have this answer. Because I think that Elf is just keen to keep those groups on board.
#
tantek
harry - I don't want schema on the agenda, even as a placeholder, until schema companies join the WG
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-15 as a placeholder, recognizing we can't do anything about it until the situation with schema.org is resolved
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Next, issue-16
#
bblfish
iiseu-16?
#
bblfish
issue-16
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-16.
#
trackbot
issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- raised
#
harry
understood Tantek, but Ralph is negotiating this with Google so we're just waiting to see if progress is made.
#
harry
If not, we'll drop everything when we hit CR
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
I'm happy to discuss microformats2 - AS2 mappings
#
tantek
in fact I think that *should* be on the agenda for the f2f
#
tantek
PROPOSED: Discuss and figure out microformats2 - AS2 mappings at f2f
#
bret
mappings++
#
Loqi
mappings has 1 karma
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-16
#
tantek
is filing bugs with Google tech support re: Hangouts iOS app failing to do touchtones this week.
#
jasnell
Jasnell: recommends opening -16
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-16
#
jasnell
Arnaud: no objections, open -16
#
trackbot
doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
#
Arnaud
issue-17?
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-17.
#
trackbot
issue-17 -- Identity, Agent, Person, Persona, Account etc. need clarifications -- raised
#
bret
can someone link that github issue?
#
jasnell
Elf: need to clarify things around Actors
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
very difficult to hear james
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: we need to refine existing classes, possibly remove some or add new ones
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-17
#
jasnell
my apologies for audio issues
#
bblfish
I wonder why we don't just use foaf
#
jasnell
Arnaud: open -17
#
KevinMarks
I wonder why no-one uses FOAF
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-17
#
bblfish
foaf is pretty widely deployed KevinMarks
#
tantek
jasnell at least you have audio issue
#
tantek
bblfish: citation needed
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Proposal from tantek to discuss microformats2 + as2 mappings at f2f
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tantek is not on the call
#
tantek
thank you Arnaud
#
ben_thatmustbeme
had issues joining
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme - I proposed in IRC
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika (muted),
#
Zakim
... bill-looby (muted), ShaneHudson (muted), Harry_Halpin, +1.408.335.aadd
#
KevinMarks
Zakim aadd is me
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Tantek: just go ahead and add it to the agenda
#
jasnell
Arnaud: one of the goals of the f2f needs to be to close as many issues as possible
#
jasnell
Arnaud: we have a list of open actions
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, i know, i was stating for Arnaud who asked for you to respond
#
tantek
thanks Arnaud adding
#
jasnell
Harry: will review actions as soon as time is available
#
elf-pavlik
i have 3 ready :)
#
jasnell
Arnaud: done tracking actions and issues
#
jasnell
Elf: Issue -7
#
bill-looby
James - if you want you can assign the Connections action to me
#
bret
Zakim, who is talking?
#
Zakim
I am sorry, bret; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
ben_thatmustbeme
someone is causing feedback loop on audio
#
bblfish
there is an echo
#
Zakim
I am sorry, bret; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
bret
Zakim, who is making noise?
#
bblfish
zakim who is making noise?
#
harry
notes its 30 min. into call and we haven't gotten to user stories and API
#
Arnaud
ISSUE-7?
#
trackbot
is looking up ISSUE-7.
#
trackbot
ISSUE-7 -- Are AS consumers required to understand the pre-JSON-LD syntax? -- pending review
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: currently we require to provide compacted version of JSON-LD using normative @context
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: question - do we need more detailed processing model
#
tantek
hoping that context is not required, for publishing or consumption
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: how two implementers can interpret it exactly in the same way
#
jasnell
Arnaud: marking issue -7 as still open
#
tantek
ASIDE: for f2f food preferences/requirements, for now I suggest adding in a parenthetical remark next to your name: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#Participation
#
elf-pavlik
action-11
#
trackbot
is looking up action-11.
#
trackbot
action-11 -- Pavlik elf to Expand on Facebook APIs -- due 2014-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
jasnell
(elf, thank you for helping scribe while I talk :-) ..)
#
elf-pavlik
action-34
#
trackbot
is looking up action-34.
#
trackbot
action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
jasnell
Elf: added expanded discussion of facebook api's to wiki
#
harry
Zakim, mute harry
#
Zakim
Harry_Halpin should now be muted
#
tantek
wonders how long it will take Loqi to notice that I edited https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17
#
Zakim
-ShaneHudson
#
jasnell
Elf: for #34, added discussion around microformats to wiki, needs review
#
harry
we have some heavy echo
#
jasnell
Arnaud, you're echo'ing like crazy
#
harry
My opinion was index
#
bblfish
I think it happens wehenver Elf is online.
#
harry
or appendix
#
jasnell
Elf: leave 34 open for feedback
#
Zakim
+??P13
#
elf-pavlik
action-39
#
trackbot
is looking up action-39.
#
trackbot
action-39 -- Pavlik elf to Follow up with xAPI developers community -- due 2015-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
KevinMarks
it may not be arnaud causing the echo
#
ShaneHudson
Zakim, ??P13 is me
#
Zakim
+ShaneHudson; got it
#
ShaneHudson
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
ShaneHudson should now be muted
#
jasnell
Elf: had a call with xAPI, moved those discussions to IG
#
jasnell
Elf: let's close 39 for now
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Closing 39
#
jasnell
Arnaud: done with actions and issues
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Next.. social api user stories
#
elf-pavlik
topic: Social API User Stories
#
jasnell
Arnaud: vote ended
#
jasnell
Arnaud: now to sort things out
#
elf-pavlik
lost audio :(
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Evan said he'd start sorting but he's not here... any updates?
#
Loqi
aww, cheer up
#
harry
I recommend that we try to agree on a process going forward
#
jasnell
defer to next week?
#
harry
with the stories
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
No updates, but I am willing to try going through to sort myself
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
Harry_Halpin should no longer be muted
#
harry
Zakim, unmute me
#
tantek
I'd like to at least gather the stories that we have *strong* consensus on
#
tantek
i.e. no -1s, and far more +1s than 0s
#
jasnell
Henry: we need to look at the controversial items more
#
jasnell
Henry: we need to understand the reasons for the disagreements.
#
tantek
I think we should prioritize by strong consensus for, weak consensus for, weak consensus against, strong consensus against
#
tantek
within that sorting, I agree that we need to broaden understanding of the reasons for disagreement
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Agree. Three different buckets: (1) everyone agrees, (2) enough agreement but maybe some objections to deal with, (3) no support
#
jasnell
Arnaud: differentiate between "Not interesting right now" vs "Not interesting at all"
#
Zakim
sees harry, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Keep everything, just sort it
#
tantek
Arnaud, I think it's important to distinguish *strong* agreement vs. weak/passive agreement
#
Arnaud
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Harry: Concerned that we'll go into endless user story discussion. By next week let's get everything sorted
#
jasnell
Harry: Rough consensus, Rough consensus with objections, Multiple objections
#
jasnell
Harry: Get consensus face to face *before* f2f
#
tantek
what if we did v1 core API using only user stories that have strong consensus?
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Harry: Get consensus *before* f2f
#
tantek
that seems like a good way to get a minimum viable v1 social api
#
tantek
I doubt we're going to resolve all user stories before f2f
#
harry
Zakim mute me
#
tantek
it's in only two weeks!
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, we need to also clarify what you mean by v1...
#
harry
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
Harry_Halpin should now be muted
#
elf-pavlik
but maybe not now
#
harry
I do not want to spend the entire f2f discussing user stories
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: the first version of a social api we take to CR
#
harry
that is likely a waste of time
#
harry
i.e. the XG discussed user stories for about a year with no visible progress :)
#
tantek
harry, we can timebox it
#
tantek
harry - the XG didn't even document a canonical list of user stories
#
jasnell
Harry: there are cases where we have the time, if we have the process, to get stories clarified where there are objections
#
tantek
which is why we had to do it ourselves in the WG
#
harry
No, it did - see wiki page
#
harry
its just people keep adding new ones
#
jasnell
s/Harry/Henry
#
tantek
harry, this WG in two weeks produced better quality user stories / use-cases than all the XG work
#
harry
The main difference is we had a time limit :)
#
tantek
XG was kind of a disaster
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I would suggest working with the More Stories page to attempt to do this, I have already done this
#
tantek
endless email threads
#
jasnell
Arnaud: someone needs to take a pass at organizing
#
harry
Well, it was a disaster insofar as we spent too much time on user stories
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Evan was going to do it, not sure it happened yet.
#
harry
In general, I suggest we try to get consensus on the 'core' before the f2f
#
Zakim
sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Arnaud: any other volunteers just in case?
#
tantek
harry - it was a disaster in that it was email-only discussion about web.
#
jasnell
(crickets)
#
bblfish
I'll do it
#
Arnaud
ack ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim
unmutes ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
harry
I'm happy to work with Evan as well.
#
jasnell
Ben: volunteers to go through it
#
harry
Note that we had telecons and a Twitter account for the XG, as well as a blog and wiki :)
#
melvster
consensus is good but, there w3c is also committed openstand standards principles, such as scalability, that needs to be a consideration, imho
#
harry
Thus, my proposal is 3 buckets:
#
harry
1) Clear consensus
#
tantek
harry - when a groupd is dominated by email-list people, it doesn't produce a lot for the web
#
jasnell
Ben: How do we deal with the -1's ...
#
harry
2) Rough consensus - with a few objections
#
tantek
melvster - please leave aside "openstand" - openstand itself does not comply with openstand principles
#
harry
3) Multiple objections and lack of interest from implementers
#
tantek
harry 1) is insufficient
#
jasnell
Arnaud: if ben is willing to go through and move things around then great, but please coordinate with Evan
#
harry
So we can then spend time at f2f addressing 2).
#
tantek
really should distinguish STRONG consensus (i.e. majority +1s, no -1s)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
tantek
from weak consensus (no -1s)
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Arnaud: if anyone sees one of their stories being challenge, consider attempting to address the challenge by updating the story
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Henry: what's the best way process wise?
#
tantek
Arnaud, or withdraw user-story
#
tantek
we should make a section for people to voluntarily withdraw user stories
#
jasnell
Henry: feedback to mailing list or wiki? two days to write then feedback?
#
tantek
perhaps postponed? or withdrawn for v1?
#
jasnell
tantek: +1
#
KevinMarks
mailing lists are terrible at consensus
#
tantek
let's not waste time trying to resolve disputes on user stories that seem hopeless
#
tantek
mailing-lists--
#
Loqi
mailing-lists has -1 karma
#
jasnell
who just spoke?
#
jasnell
missed that last suggestion
#
elf-pavlik
still trying to reconect with zakim...
#
tantek
goodluck elf-pavlik
#
elf-pavlik
voip from digitalbazaar works just fine
#
jasnell
Arnaud: if you want to propose a modified version of a story, ping anyone who has objected to notify of new version, ask if that addresses the issue
#
elf-pavlik
tantek thx!
#
jasnell
Arnaud: as tantek suggests, people should consider pulling stories back out
#
wilkie
unless they have nothing but +1s?
#
Zakim
+??P22
#
jasnell
Arnaud: want a formal action or...?
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P22 is me
#
Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should no longer be muted
#
harry
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim
I am sorry, harry; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
elf-pavlik
Zakiml, mute me
#
jasnell
lot's of static
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, who is making noise
#
bret
Zakim, who is making noise?
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'who is making noise', ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim
I am sorry, bret; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
bblfish
zakim mute ??P22
#
harry
Zakim, mute elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik was already muted, harry
#
jasnell
Ben: don't need a formal action
#
bret
whats wrong with Zakim?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
bblfish
zakim, mute ??P22
#
Zakim
sorry, bblfish, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P22
#
harry
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
Harry_Halpin was already muted, harry
#
jasnell
Zakim, who is making noise
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'who is making noise', jasnell
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute ??P22
#
Zakim
sorry, ben_thatmustbeme, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P22
#
bblfish
zakim, mute P22
#
Zakim
sorry, bblfish, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P22
#
harry
Zakim might be overbooked
#
harry
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim
I am sorry, harry; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
harry
I have never seen that error before
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik was already muted, ben_thatmustbeme
#
bblfish
zakim, mute ?P22
#
Zakim
sorry, bblfish, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ?P22
#
harry
everyone mute themselves
#
Zakim
-aaronpk
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Everyone go on mute please
#
harry
and then it will be revealed
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika (muted),
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
... bill-looby (muted), Harry_Halpin (muted), +1.408.335.aadd, ShaneHudson (muted), elf-pavlik.a
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme was already muted, ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim
AdamB should now be muted
#
harry
Zakim, mute AdamB
#
jasnell
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
jasnell should now be muted
#
bblfish
zakim, who is making noise
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'who is making noise', bblfish
#
harry
Zakim mute Arnaud
#
wilkie
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
wilkie should now be muted
#
harry
Zakim, unmute Arnaud
#
Zakim
Arnaud was not muted, harry
#
harry
Zakim, unmute AdamB
#
Zakim
AdamB should no longer be muted
#
bblfish
zakim, who is making noise
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'who is making noise', bblfish
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who;s making noise?
#
Zakim
I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
#
harry
Zaim, mute dromasca
#
tantek
I can attempt to group apparent STRONG consensus stories
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim
apologizes, elf-pavlik; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
harry
Zakim, mute jasnell
#
Zakim
jasnell was already muted, harry
#
jasnell
Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
jasnell should no longer be muted
#
harry
Zakim, mute bblfish
#
Zakim
bblfish should now be muted
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish (muted), wilkie (muted), Tsyesika
#
Arnaud
zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
... (muted), bill-looby (muted), Harry_Halpin (muted), +1.408.335.aadd, ShaneHudson (muted), elf-pavlik.a
#
Zakim
Arnaud should now be muted
#
AdamB
zakim needs a mute all
#
jasnell
well, this is fun
#
harry
Zakim, elf-pavlik.a
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'elf-pavlik.a', harry
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute Tsyesika
#
Zakim
Tsyesika was already muted, elf-pavlik
#
harry
Zakim, mute wilkie
#
Arnaud
zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
wilkie was already muted, harry
#
Zakim
Arnaud should no longer be muted
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish (muted), wilkie (muted), Tsyesika
#
Zakim
... (muted), bill-looby (muted), Harry_Halpin (muted), +1.408.335.aadd, ShaneHudson (muted), elf-pavlik.a
#
harry
Zakim, mute Tsyesika
#
Zakim
Tsyesika was already muted, harry
#
Loqi
Zakim has -1 karma
#
KevinMarks
I'm +1.408.335.aadd,
#
bblfish
zakim, who's making noise
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'who's making noise', bblfish
#
KevinMarks
but I'm muted at my end
#
jasnell
Arnaud: may not be able to proceed with the noise
#
harry
I suggest we end meeting early, this might be a Zakim issue
#
jasnell
Arnaud: let's try
#
harry
or just take meeting to IRC
#
jasnell
sweet relief
#
bret
whoever just did something, thankyou
#
KevinMarks
what changed?
#
harry
not sure, we started muted people but it wasn't clear - my suspicion is Zakim may have been overloaded.
#
jasnell
Arnaud: anything else to discuss?
#
harry
we are overbooked right now
#
tantek
apparently I am not missing much in audio?
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Elf added bullets.. want to discuss?
#
elf-pavlik
i don't want to unmute, needed to use different device
#
bret
tantek: its fixed now
#
jasnell
tantek: you missed some wonderful static
#
harry
(we will be upgrading Zakim later in the year BTW)
#
harry
Zakim, unmute elf-pavlik.a
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik.a was not muted, harry
#
elf-pavlik
mostly IG work on Vocabulary terms based on User Stories
#
harry
Zakim, unmute elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Arnaud: if there's nothing else for today, postpone for next week?
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
unmutes bblfish
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
bret
i added an item to the agenda, do you want to cover it this week?
#
jasnell
Henry: there's a confusion between what API's are doing, what vocabularies are doing, what clients are doing, etc
#
jasnell
Henry: there are misunderstandings around the user stories due to confusion between roles in the API and Vocabulary, etc
#
jasnell
Arnaud: let's not speculate and let elf comment
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
harry
bblfish, I think people have different opinions here
#
jasnell
Henry: what is the role of the API vs. the role of the vocabulary
#
tantek
attempting to follow by IRC
#
tantek
wait, is anyone here running hydra on their personal site?
#
tantek
I'm really confused why it keeps coming up
#
bblfish
who just spoke
#
tantek
is it like, cut off one hydra discussion, two more spring up in its place?
#
bret
Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
bret should no longer be muted
#
jasnell
Arnaud: remaining issues in last 5 mins... bret...?
#
bblfish
the last person to speak was not logged
#
elf-pavlik
who's on the call?
#
bret
can you here me?
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), bret, Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie (muted), Tsyesika (muted), bill-looby
#
Zakim
... (muted), Harry_Halpin (muted), +1.408.335.aadd, ShaneHudson (muted), elf-pavlik.a
#
bret
darn
#
harry
zakim, unmute bret
#
Zakim
bret was not muted, harry
#
harry
weird!
#
jasnell
Jasnell: agreed with Henry that the role of the API and Vocabulary need to be clarified
#
harry
bret, you may be muted locally
#
harry
or you can type in IRC
#
elf-pavlik
bret did you mute locally?
#
bret
ill just use irc
#
wilkie
therefore, technology is not great :)
#
jasnell
Jasnell: indicated that clarification would help determine what parts of the vocabulary can be simplified, if any
#
bret
I just wanted to discuss how this API can be accessed
#
elf-pavlik
bret, can you post more info to mailing list?
#
jasnell
Arnaud: how do we even find the entry point
#
KevinMarks
technology is what doesn't work yet
#
harry
I think this is the 'discovery' problem ala WebFinger
#
bret
I can bring it up at another meeting
#
elf-pavlik
LOL ;-) here WebFinger comes ...
#
jasnell
Henry: following links
#
KevinMarks
you want a rel link on page
#
jasnell
Arnaud: we had the same question in LDP, settled on doing nothing
#
tantek
bret - perhaps add as first agenda item for 03-10 call?
#
tantek
it's amazing how productive doing nothing can be
#
jasnell
Arnaud: how do start when using the web. Usually starts with search engine or URL to somewhere
#
harry
I imagine some link following will work out
#
jasnell
tantek: +1
#
bret
i can talk about it more when my aduio works
#
bret
i had a small example to show
#
harry
however, I'm not really into re-inventing the wheel unless we have some success in terms of implementation.
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
anything for IG tomorrow?
#
Arnaud
ack harry
#
Zakim
unmutes Harry_Halpin
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bret
lets defert
#
bret
defer*
#
bret
srry guys
#
jasnell
Jasnell: defer to next week to let bret comment further
#
jasnell
Harry: it's worth discussing, at the same time it's easy to rathole. We don't want yet another discovery dead end
#
jasnell
Harry: webfinger is one possible way but we can figure it out
#
tantek
harry, do you support webfinger on your personal site?
#
tantek
if not, I don't believe it is "one possible way" :P
#
jasnell
Harry: if we have some New Exciting And Wonderful Discovery mechanism on the table, then ok let's discuss, but if not, let's focus on API
#
harry
No, but large providers have historically supported it - at some point Google did.
#
harry
I believe they may have dropped
#
tantek
sounded like bret's issue was more conneg than discovery
#
elf-pavlik
nothing specific, just invitation!
#
jasnell
Arnaud: closing, please provide feedback to IG agenda. IG call tomorrow
#
tantek
harry, yeah, at some point, then it broke. hence fragile.
#
jasnell
Arnaud: Thank you all for joining
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell++
#
Loqi
jasnell has 3 karma
#
harry
+1 Arnaud
#
tantek
no one noticed it was broken
#
wilkie
jasnell++
#
Loqi
jasnell has 4 karma
#
bret
tantek: ill raise it next week
#
tantek
because no one was consuming Google's webfinger in realtime
#
harry
pandoc on Amy's page works well
#
wilkie
pandoc.amy.gy
#
tantek
or for any practical reason
#
bret
unfortunately audio was acting up today
#
KevinMarks
I don't even have email on my personal site so WebFinger is irrelevant
#
Zakim
-Tsyesika
#
Zakim
-AdamB
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud++
#
Zakim
-Harry_Halpin
#
Zakim
-Arnaud
#
jasnell
Arnaud: all done
#
Loqi
Arnaud has 3 karma
#
Arnaud
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been elf-pavlik, +1.314.777.aaaa, AdamB, +1.617.247.aabb, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, rhiaro, bret, Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell,
#
Zakim
... +33.6.43.93.aacc, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika, Ann, ShaneHudson, bill-looby, Harry_Halpin, +1.408.335.aadd
#
Zakim
-bret
#
Zakim
-bblfish
#
Zakim
-jasnell
#
Zakim
-ShaneHudson
#
tantek
thus I question any claims of webfinger deployment
#
Zakim
-Sandro
#
Zakim
-rhiaro
#
Zakim
-bill-looby
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
Zakim
-ben_thatmustbeme
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
Zakim
- +1.408.335.aadd
#
RRSAgent
ACTION: harry to review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats [1]
#
Zakim
-dromasca
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell, you can also ask rhiaro here for help if you get lost...
#
rhiaro
waves
#
Zakim
-elf-pavlik.a
#
tantek
waves
#
Zakim
-wilkie
#
Loqi
bret has 51 karma
#
elf-pavlik
it does what you want but Read/Write
#
wilkie
thanks for the call
#
bret
elf-pavlik: is that q for me?
#
elf-pavlik
bret, yes
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: does your personal site support hydra?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hopefully everyone can get in next time without trouble
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, i'll ping you once i adde it
#
tantek
shipping++
#
Loqi
shipping has 1 karma
#
Arnaud
rrsagent, make log public
#
bret
elf-pavlik: im not familiar with how hydra works
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: that's a source tree - let me know when you have a deployment
#
elf-pavlik
as i said, will do
RRSAgent joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
i hope before f2f
#
Arnaud
rrsagent, make log public
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request, Arnaud
#
tantek
welcome back RRSAgent, who paged you?
#
Arnaud
I did
#
Arnaud
the logs aren't accessible for some reason
#
elf-pavlik
it looks like like they should
#
elf-pavlik
i just requested same config for IG after last call
#
tantek
curious
#
Arnaud
oh I know they "should"
#
Arnaud
but it tends to often fail for some reason unfortunately
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud, harry any way to help with fixing W3C setup?
#
elf-pavlik
for example digitalbazaar has VoIP working much better - used in Credentials CG and some other CGs
#
Arnaud
rrsagent, generate minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-minutes.html Arnaud
#
Arnaud
ok, that did it
#
Arnaud
rrsagent, bye
#
RRSAgent
I see no action items
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, do you plan to publish AS2.0 ?
#
bret
elf-pavlik: to answer your question, not haven't seen that before
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell++
#
Loqi
jasnell has 5 karma
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell, FYI using 'topic:' gives you headings in minutes
#
jasnell
good to know, thanks elf
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, i also wonder if you still plan to review microformats examples
#
elf-pavlik
action-26
#
trackbot
action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN
#
trackbot
is looking up action-26.
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: I've been discouraged by the notification that there are 900+ of them
#
tantek
I don't even understand why a spec needs 900+ examples :(
#
elf-pavlik
i have automated tests for comparing Turtle to JSON-LD and now work on automating RDFa to JSON-LD comparison
#
tantek
that seems to me a huge mistake
#
Loqi
it'll be ok
#
tantek
in complexity
#
tantek
Loqi, I'm not so sure
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, do you mind if we drop microformats examples from the spec?
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: why?
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: I think we need to rethink AS2 in terms of what's necessary for approved user stories, and no more
#
elf-pavlik
i don't see (currently) a way to automaticly verify that they have same data as normative JSON-LD ones
#
tantek
perhaps the normative JSON-LD ones have too much
#
tantek
that's my understanding
#
tantek
and too much means confusion to consuming code
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, can you pick just few which you will see from your perspective core?
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: I think starting with the user-stories is a good first step
#
elf-pavlik
not reviewing even 5 examples befcause 900+ exist doesn't sound like reasonable argument to me
#
elf-pavlik
can you pick examples which fit user stories which you +1 ?
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: or rather the opposite
#
tantek
that is, reviewing 5 examples is reasonable
#
tantek
better to reframe such statements as positives :)
#
elf-pavlik
can you please review even just 5?
#
tantek
probably
jaywink joined the channel
#
tantek
I'm wondering if we need an AS-light that only does what's needed for strong consensus user stories and nothing more
#
elf-pavlik
we have 'objects', 'activities', 'collections'
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: seems like too much
#
tantek
in the simpler indieweb / microformats model
#
tantek
just posts
#
tantek
i.e. objects
#
tantek
activities are just a subset of that (i.e. "responses")
#
tantek
and a "collection" is just a type of post
#
tantek
I'm glad we got drafts of the AS2 specs published in W3C, at least for legal/IP reasons
#
elf-pavlik
how do you see collection defined by a tag ?
#
tantek
but frankly I'm not sure how practical it is
#
tantek
and I would like to invite alternative minimal proposals
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: can you provide me a permalnk to the first microformats example in the AS spec?
#
bret
wowza, thats a long list
#
tantek
bret?
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: aaronpk for example publishes collection posts. see indiewebcamp.com/collection
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: wow <link> inside div? this is horrible markup
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, github PR with improved example?
#
KevinMarks
that isn't a microformats example
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: can you provide a permalink to that example to the github version which I should edit?
#
tantek
in the github version
#
KevinMarks
wtf is it using an urn? is Martin dead?
#
tantek
also I find it funny that a "minimal" example has an image
#
tantek
a minimal example IMO would be just a note
#
tantek
thanks elf-pavlik that looks closer to something I can edit
#
ShaneHudson
Whenever I see an example with an urn I get put off, and I know what it is. I bet most devs don't.
#
tantek
yeah urn examples make it look like it's not meant for the web
#
tantek
alright, signing off #social to go look at example. ttyl
#
elf-pavlik
i recommend PR on github and discuss it further there!
#
elf-pavlik
just ++ each other on IRC will not change the spec :P
#
Zakim
disconnecting the lone participant, elf-pavlik, in T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
#
Zakim
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
#
Zakim
Attendees were elf-pavlik, +1.314.777.aaaa, AdamB, +1.617.247.aabb, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, rhiaro, bret, Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, +33.6.43.93.aacc, bblfish, wilkie,
#
Zakim
... Tsyesika, Ann, ShaneHudson, bill-looby, Harry_Halpin, +1.408.335.aadd
ShaneHudson and jasnell joined the channel
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: +1 drop microformats examples ... caveat: if mf have significant deployment in a social web context (I dont know the stats here) then that's a good argument to keep them as examples
#
melvster
consuming both json-ld and mf2 may be a challenge for the tooling
almereyda joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
melvster, i would look at using mf vocab with RDFa :P
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: how does this fit in with? http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab if at all?
#
elf-pavlik
if people want HTML that would make things simplest
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: btw take back my earlier comment, your / identity may not be thought of as a document and a person because of the 303 by some tooling ... I think this is a grey area in many people's mind ... not my place to make a sweeping statement ... however having TWO identities one at foo and one at foo/ may be a big challenge for consumers and tooling to work with
#
elf-pavlik
melvster, why? they make two distinct URIs
#
melvster
microformats would be easier for me to work with if there was a namespace behind it
#
elf-pavlik
seeing them somehow related sounds like not following axoim of URI opacity...
#
melvster
redirects are typically a pain to work with, and this pattern I could imagine being VERY confusing for developers to understand, I dont know how much tooling supports it, and those that dont how long it may take (if ever) to prioritize such a pattern
#
melvster
uris are not opaque ever
#
melvster
that aside, the question in my mind is whether this is an edge case, and whether it will be supported, that remains to be seen ... one way to get to make supporting it attractive is to give good reasons such as wide adoption, but not every pattern is widely adopted, some fail without patches ever getting upstream
#
elf-pavlik
i think we may stumble again at httprange-14 here http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/14
#
elf-pavlik
i also start collecting notes relevant to it here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: just the architecture of the web ... 303 was lobbied for, it got some people behind it, now it's up to those people to evangelize and get widespread adoption ... then get patches in the tooling upstream, but not every new pattern thrives, imho, this is one that will not, time will tell on this one, use at your own risk
#
melvster
it's an antipattern for vanity folks imho
#
elf-pavlik
melvster, i don't worry to much about 'old' tooling ... all software needs new generation of implementations at some pint
#
elf-pavlik
s/pint/point/
#
melvster
well i think you're using old tooling, and im using new tooling ... but of course im biased! :D
#
melvster
eg i dont think payments will work with your pattern
#
melvster
but without having a debate about what's old and what's new ... i believe i work on current tooling and I dont think your pattern is supported today
#
elf-pavlik
on positive side - blank nodes don't have problem with httprange-14 ;)
#
Zakim
excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
#
melvster
sure they do
#
elf-pavlik
how come?
#
melvster
blank nodes should also be avoided if possible, axiom 0 of the web is to give anything of not a URI
#
melvster
blank nodes are just things without a name, you still should try and name them
#
melvster
one of the main exercises in web technology is naming things
#
melvster
in an ideal world bnodes would be a temporary state
#
melvster
they are quite hard to deal with without a query language too
#
melvster
also consider a blank node that has an owl : sameAs
#
melvster
or any number of equivalence relations
#
melvster
the inferences can cause conflicts
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: im sorry if it comes across this way, the conversation is simply about naming strategies, since you brought up the axiom, ill just note that the first axiom is that when you name things and give them a URI they are "on the web", so that's the first goal of anyone that would want to follow the axiom, logically it means to try and avoid bnodes, if that makes sense
#
melvster
bnodes have their place, but just be aware they break lots of things, so that's a good argument not to use them (putting the axioms aside)
#
melvster
they are not good for interoperability, if that's important to ou
#
melvster
s/ou/you
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elf-pavlik
i tend to avoid them ...
#
aaronpk
wtf is a blank node
#
melvster
some say they should not be part of RDF, but Im not so extreme, i simply say better to avoid them
#
melvster
aaronpk: a blank node is an unnamed subject, with attribute values
#
elf-pavlik
aaronpk, i recommend article by manu sporny i just linked to
#
melvster
e.g. [] a Person ; name "Aaron" ; location "Earth" .
Arnaud joined the channel
#
aaronpk
why isn't everything just a URL, then blank nodes are just 404 not found pages
#
melvster
aaronpk: many people think like you ... however some argue the it's convenient to work with things that dont have a URL, perhaps later they can get one is a possible scenario
#
melvster
personally I lean towards your POV
#
aaronpk
i mean if it doesn't have a URL it's not really on the web
#
melvster
yes this is the first axiom of the web, I agree
#
elf-pavlik
aaronpk, we don't only talk about web *pages* ...
pfefferle joined the channel
#
melvster
tl;dr it's a centralization vs decentralization argument ... should the web be like a piece of paper that anything can be written on ... or should the paper (ie the web page) be tightly coupled to the the data ... the 2nd argument has been lobbied for, and the web has become more centralized as a result, but the original design of the web is of modularity and loose coupling
#
melvster
each will have their own point of view on that, so it's considered a debate by the centralists, but in reality there's no debate at all, just different ways of doing things
#
elf-pavlik
aaronpk, we had serious conversation with melvster but for me httprange-14 and blank nodes need some sense of humor not to drive one crazy :)
#
melvster
im all for sense of humor, but it does lead to systems that dont interoperate with the original vision of the web, which I think is a shame
#
melvster
i dont think centralization vs decentralization will ever have a resolution ... my hope is that both can live together ... but one side is open one is not
#
melvster
aaronpk: but im with you, give things a URL, put them on the web, and you will tend to have fewer problems
#
aaronpk
melvster++
#
Loqi
melvster has 2 karma
#
melvster
at the end of the day tantek has the right attitude, if you believe in a technology go out and build something with it, dont debate, then people will say "hey, I want to do that too" ... at that point mailing list debates are forgotten
#
elf-pavlik
melvster++
#
Loqi
melvster has 3 karma
#
elf-pavlik
tantek++
#
Loqi
tantek has 160 karma
#
melvster
i should get my bot in here and do real payments :)
#
elf-pavlik
melvster, we need to replace 'n karma' with 'n karmic interactions' :P
#
melvster
as i said, im not in the camp that thinks bnodes are evil or wrong, but I think best practice is to try and avoid it (you'll find it's not always possible or practical) ... timbl is right *as usual*
#
Loqi
timbl has 1 karma
#
melvster
i run realtime payment bots on freenode
#
melvster
using 5 star linked data
#
melvster
they are also w3c web payments payment processors
#
melvster
but the problem with w3c payments is that you cant transfer from one processor to another with the current spec, so I dont see it as that useful for me at the moment
#
melvster
it's not even clear how that will ever happen
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: but can I spend that karma, or can I see it on the web?
#
elf-pavlik
i really need to get back on transfering shares of *real* stuff http://www.w3.org/community/webcurrencies/wiki/Assets_Shares
#
melvster
100,000+ merchants now accept crypto currency
#
melvster
hardest thing for a currency is to get merchant adoption
#
elf-pavlik
why spend? you can reclaim your real assets
#
melvster
yes even better
#
melvster
it would be nice if everyone thought that way
#
elf-pavlik
i need km on european bus lines and railways
#
elf-pavlik
sometimes also some gasoline
#
elf-pavlik
always kWh of electricty and as we speak now kB of bandwith ...
#
elf-pavlik
i need to log stuff well to get really good forcasts of my economic needs
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: do you use bitcoin?
#
melvster
i log everything now
#
melvster
using linked data
#
melvster
Melvin Carvalho
#
melvster
completed 250 marks of work - 400