#social 2015-03-03

2015-03-03 UTC
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82590&oldid=81075
shepazu, bblfish, harry, jaywink_, Augier, the_frey, pfefferle, elf-pavlik and stevenroose joined the channel
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82592&oldid=82550
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82593&oldid=82558
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82594&oldid=82593
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82597&oldid=82594
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82600&oldid=82597
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82601&oldid=82600
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elf-pavlik bblfish, you will not join remotely next Face 2 Face? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17
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bblfish ah yes I should
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elf-pavlik bblfish, can you move yourself to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#Remote_Participation :)
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elf-pavlik i also haven't noticed it when i adde myself first...
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bblfish ah was looking for that section
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bblfish ok, done
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Loqi Bblfish made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82605&oldid=82562
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Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82604&oldid=82602
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tantek good morning #social!
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tantek !tell harry you mentioned something about webfinger on the email list "streaming/push "out of scope", was Re: on API Requirements" - I don't see webfinger as required or even desired as a building block for the socialweb. IndieWeb sites don't depend on it at all for federation etc.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek webfinger--
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Loqi webfinger has -1 karma
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elf-pavlik hi tantek
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=webfinger&hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=&index-grp=Public_FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-socialweb
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tantek ignores the email list deep dive
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tantek elf-pavlik: do you support webfinger on your personal site?
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elf-pavlik you can find there at least 3 emails from harry
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tantek elf-pavlik: emails are irrelevant. this is the social *web*.
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elf-pavlik i had it running before migrating server
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tantek so you're saying webfinger is fragile to server migrations
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tantek that's a decent criticism to document
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elf-pavlik mostly to get website of someone authenticating with mozilla persona
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tantek mozilla persona does not depend on webfinger. only .well-known.
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elf-pavlik nope, i struggled with getting access to stable VM
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elf-pavlik it also doen't provide way to get online profile based on email address
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elf-pavlik i just used it to point to URL with information about me
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elf-pavlik harry's take on webfinger https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2014Nov/0202.html
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tantek does harry use or support webfinger on his personal site?
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tantek I dispute "fairly widespread uptake"
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tantek elf-pavlik: far more people in social web wg have personal sites that use simple h-card or hCard for profile info on their personal site, than webfinger
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tantek so if we did a poll by action "what do you actually support" instead of politics "what is your wish", then h-card trumps webfinger
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tantek such "wishful" proposals/requests are fairly ignorable
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tantek shipping counts, and selfdogfooding on your own site, and living with it day-to-day counts
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tantek email chatter about it is merely watercooler wishfulness
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tantek not useful for implementation
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tantek vote by shipping things on your personal site
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elf-pavlik hCard, foaf:Person, schema:Person ... one still sometimes needs to get HTTP URL based on email (like) address
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tantek elf-pavlik: nah, I dispute "needs to get HTTP URL based on email (like) address" - citation to use-case needed.
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tantek elf-pavlik: and to keep it real, what use-case *on your site* "needs to get HTTP URL based on email (like) address" ?
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elf-pavlik tantek, I don't feel very strong about webfinger myself, i just understand why people see need for it
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KevinMarks is Blair's grandma even using webfinger?
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tantek elf-pavlik: if people are shipping/interoperating *without* it, that's proof that it's unnecessary
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tantek irrelevant if people "wish" for a need for it
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tantek shipping counts, email wishes don't
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elf-pavlik tantek, please search http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/ for 'acct'
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tantek elf-pavlik: nope. specs aren't implementations.
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elf-pavlik during next Face 2 Face we plan to discuss taking *that draft* to CR
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tantek right, and by default everything in AS is "at-risk"
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elf-pavlik i remember you *proposed* it this way
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tantek elf-pavlik: correct, that is what I'm pursuing, because right now we have zero W3C AS implementations
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tantek it is only logical
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tantek also, per the desire to minimize security surface, we should seek to minimize W3C AS features
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elf-pavlik if you think that we shouldn't require and not even recommend webfinger it may make sense to raise it as an issue https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues
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melvster tantek: "I don't see webfinger as required or even desired as a building block for the socialweb" +1
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elf-pavlik at this moment most people in the group seem to have ok-ish opinion about using it
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elf-pavlik and you see current AS2 draft suggests it by using acct: URI scheme
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melvster tantek: "does harry use or support webfinger on his personal site?" -- does harry even have a personal site?
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tantek melvster - good q
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tantek not sure how many people in this group do
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elf-pavlik https://www.facebook.com/hhalpin ;)
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tantek lol
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melvster well that's not actually too bad
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melvster facebook has some great functionality imho
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elf-pavlik melvster, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories/Implementations#Facebook
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KevinMarks it's not even curlable
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melvster KevinMarks: what's not 'curlable'?
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melvster elf-pavlik: that's not really how facebook works
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melvster missing a huge chunk of it which is the app platform, and also payments
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KevinMarks if you curl https://www.facebook.com/hhalpin you don't get any actual HTML
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melvster facebook roughly has 7 APIs
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melvster KevinMarks: use graph.facebook.com
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elf-pavlik melvster, do you follow Payments IG work? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html
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melvster elf-pavlik: kinda, but it's still very early for that
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elf-pavlik https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#negotiation-of-payment-terms
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elf-pavlik Discovery of Offer
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melvster facebook have 4 kinds of api -- user / feed / app / payment
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elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-offer
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melvster 1 user -- 1.1 add friend 1.2 message friend 1.3 friend request
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melvster 2. feed -- add post
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melvster 3. app (important!) -- 3.1 add an app 3.2 set app permissions
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melvster 4. Add a payment
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melvster that's roughly how it's broken down the last 3 years
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melvster apps a such a huge part of facebook
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Facebook_API
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elf-pavlik where do you place Groups and Events?
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bret added an additional user story: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/More_user_stories#URL_based_API_Entrypoint#URL_based_API_Entrypoint
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bret tantek: per our discussion ^
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melvster yes groups and events are important these days
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Loqi Bret made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/More user stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82609&oldid=82399
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KevinMarks I mean there is HTML in the FB page but it is wrapped in '<code class="hidden_elem" id="u_0_9"><!--' ' --></code>'
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KevinMarks o_O
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tantek bret, makes sense
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tantek melvster: "groups and events are important these days" ++++
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melvster KevinMarks: if you want to use curl against a facebook id, go to graph.facebook.com/id ... I like their system a lot
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melvster it even does, dare I say it, *content negotiation*
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KevinMarks except mapping from hhalpin to an id is now impossible
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melvster impossible why?
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elf-pavlik maybe they just need to deploy webfinger ;D
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tantek melvster - it's why I wrote up the apparently length / complicated (apologies!) user story for events + rsvps + invitations https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#RSVPs_invitations_comments_to_an_event
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melvster why would they? would be insane
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melvster KevinMarks: curl https://graph.facebook.com/hhalpin
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melvster {"id":"1047709463","first_name":"Harry","gender":"male","last_name":"Halpin","link":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/hhalpin","locale":"en_US","name":"Harry Halpin","username":"hhalpin"}
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KevinMarks hm, api v2 changed so id's are app-local
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tantek criticisms of "too long" and "too much in one user story" and "smaller stories please" accepted.
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tantek wrote it up too close to the deadline to break it up into separate stories
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tantek may break it down to smaller stories in /more_user_stories
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KevinMarks http://code-worrier.com/blog/changes-in-facebook-graph-api-2-dot-0/ Global user ids have been replaced with application-specific ids.
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tantek yup
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tantek FB has totally broken any sense / chance of shared global IDs for people to use across apps / systems / federation etc.
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tantek elf-pavlik: if you like webfinger so much, when are you going to re(deploy) it?
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tantek I forgot the ;)
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melvster webfinger doesnt scale imho
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tantek fascinating
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bret melvster: how come?
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bret (i don't know enough about WF to know either way)
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melvster i dont think jrd scales as well as json ld
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tantek I get the feeling that webfinger is a sideeffect of the (some) programmer culture of "distrust HTML" and preference for "abstract data"
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elf-pavlik jsonld++
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Loqi jsonld has 1 karma
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melvster KevinMarks: thanks for the article, interesting, yes they've given apps less power, but friends still have power to see each other ... I think there was a ton of app spamming that got really annoying for users
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tantek elf-pavlik: does your website provide jsonld endpoints?
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elf-pavlik tantek, of course!
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tantek that's a start then!
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elf-pavlik curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ --insecure -H "Accept: application/ld+json"
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tantek much more powerful statement than a ++ :)
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Loqi Bret made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82610&oldid=82601
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elf-pavlik curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ gives you RDFa :)
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tantek elf-pavlik++ for curlable personal site and selfdogfooding!
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Loqi elf-pavlik has 6 karma
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melvster it's non compliant tho
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elf-pavlik needs to set Content-Type
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elf-pavlik i need better templating system to render RDFa from JSON-LD...
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melvster foaf : Person does not cover documents, apart from the famous tatoo'd person argument, having had the pleasure of meeting elf in person, i can say he's not a tatoo :)
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bret elf-pavlik: what header should I add?
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elf-pavlik bret, not you - me
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elf-pavlik melvster, document?
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elf-pavlik how come?
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bret no to get back rdfa, just getting html back atm
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elf-pavlik i hass RDF in attributes - RDFa
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bret oh right, derp
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melvster elf-pavlik: let's not open this debate again, ive been over it with you several times, look at the foaf spec check the domain and ranger
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melvster s/ranger/range
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elf-pavlik ➜ curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper -I --insecure
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elf-pavlik HTTP/1.1 303 See Other
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elf-pavlik Location: http://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/
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elf-pavlik abstract without /
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elf-pavlik document with /
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elf-pavlik )
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elf-pavlik statements have one without / as subject!
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melvster yikes
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elf-pavlik "@id":"https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper"
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melvster so you redirect to from the non slash to the slash
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melvster good luck finding s/w to support that :)
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elf-pavlik about="https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper"
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tantek which one is canonical?
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elf-pavlik tantek, canonical?
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Arnaud trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 03 March 2015
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elf-pavlik Zakim, code?
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Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), elf-pavlik
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Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started
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Zakim +??P3
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elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P3 is me
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Zakim +elf-pavlik; got it
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Zakim + +1.314.777.aaaa
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, +1.314.777.aaaa
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AdamB Zakim, aaaa is me
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Zakim +AdamB; got it
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB
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Zakim + +1.617.247.aabb
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ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, aabb is me
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Zakim +ben_thatmustbeme; got it
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Zakim +aaronpk
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk
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ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
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Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
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Zakim +??P11
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rhiaro Zakim, ??P11 is me
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Zakim +rhiaro; got it
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Zakim +??P12
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rhiaro Zakim, mute me
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Zakim rhiaro should now be muted
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bret aaronpk: how did you get Zakim to remember you?
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tantek dialing
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bret Zakim, ??P12 is me
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ShaneHudson Hi all, sorry I've not made the previous few calls, had a lot of hospital visits etc. Back to normal now though hopefully :)
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Zakim +bret; got it
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Zakim +Sandro
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bret Zakim, mute me
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Zakim bret should now be muted
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro
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tantek zakim dial fail 1
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Zakim +Arnaud
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Zakim +dromasca
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tantek zakim dial fail 2
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elf-pavlik Zakim--
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Loqi Zakim has 0 karma
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Zakim +jasnell
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell
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Zakim + +33.6.43.93.aacc
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Zakim +[IPcaller]
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bblfish Zakim, aacc is me
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Zakim +bblfish; got it
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wilkie Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim +wilkie; got it
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bret nice
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie
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Zakim +??P29
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tantek is glad he's not chairing today.
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Tsyesika Zakim, ??P29 is me
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Zakim +Ann
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Zakim +Tsyesika; got it
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Zakim +[IPcaller]
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Tsyesika huh
bill-looby joined the channel
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Zakim +??P13
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Tsyesika Zakim, mute me
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Zakim Tsyesika should now be muted
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elf-pavlik Zakim, mute IPcaller
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Zakim [IPcaller] should now be muted
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ShaneHudson Zakim, ??P13 is me
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Zakim +ShaneHudson; got it
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ShaneHudson Zakim, mute me
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Zakim ShaneHudson should now be muted
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika (muted), Ann,
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bill-looby Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim ... [IPcaller] (muted), ShaneHudson (muted)
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Zakim +bill-looby; got it
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Arnaud scribe: jasnell
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Arnaud chair: Arnaud
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elf-pavlik agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-03
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jasnell Arnaud: approval of the minutes 2015-02-24
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Arnaud PROPOSED: Approval of Minutes of 24 February 2015 Teleconf https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-24-minutes
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elf-pavlik +1
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jasnell Arnaud: No objections, minutes approved
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tantek apparently Google Hangouts app touchtones are broken for me with latest app updated. :(
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Arnaud RESOLVED: Approve Minutes of 24 February 2015 Teleconf https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-24-minutes
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wilkie +1
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tantek +1
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tantek attempting restarting comms device.
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jasnell Arnaud: Next call on 2015-03-10
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Loqi I added a countdown for 3/10 12:00am (#5647)
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bret tantek: oh noes... telephone.app works with an Ekiga account
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elf-pavlik topic: Next F2F
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17
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tantek BTW - is there any way to indicate meal preferences / requirements for f2f?
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tantek sandro?
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tantek how would you like that information?
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jasnell Arnaud: talking about f2f in two weeks in Boston/MIT
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rhiaro +1 meal preferences :)
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harry Zakim, code?
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Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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tantek I know we have at least one pesceterian (myself), and vegan.
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Loqi harry: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 21 minutes ago: you mentioned something about webfinger on the email list "streaming/push "out of scope", was Re: on API Requirements" - I don't see webfinger as required or even desired as a building block for the socialweb. IndieWeb sites don't depend on it at all for federation etc.
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jasnell Arnaud: first half of first day, AS2, second half first day, API, first half second day, Federation, remaining open
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elf-pavlik aaronpk++ for vegan
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Loqi aaronpk has 721 karma
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jasnell Arnaud: Please everyone take a look at the agenda and goals for the F2F
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Zakim +Harry_Halpin
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aaronpk nope just vegetarian
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elf-pavlik still ++ :D
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jasnell will not be able to attend the f2f in person, btw. Can dial in on day 1 tho
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elf-pavlik issue-6
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trackbot issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open
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trackbot is looking up issue-6.
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/6
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elf-pavlik action-36
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trackbot is looking up action-36.
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trackbot action-36 -- Sandro Hawke to Resolve issue 6 https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/6 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/36
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RRSAgent sees no action items
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harry is Bill Looby attending?
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harry it would be good to get someone from IBM Connections to go
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jasnell Arnaud: Please get input in asap and make sure you let us know if you're able or not able to go
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elf-pavlik harry i see him on remote participants list
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tantek trying dialing again.
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jasnell Arnaud: Questions on Logistics... where are we meeting exactly
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AnnB I agree it'd be helpful to have someone from Connections
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tantek no luck, apparently the touchtones between Google Hangouts and Zakim are broken :(
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jasnell Sandro: Meeting in "Star"
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AnnB dang, tantek
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jasnell Arnaud/Ann: Please add directions to wiki
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tantek apologies, haven't had this problem before.
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bret maps and links to google maps are super helpful when navigating any college campus
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jasnell Sandro: give yourselves extra time to get lost
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tantek Sandro, is there a permalink to the venue?
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harry The largest problem I've seen is going up the wrong elevator
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rhiaro lols "50% chance of getting lost for all enternity"
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jasnell should be happy he's not going, he get's lost way too easily
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harry and there's multiple entrances
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tantek rhiaro it's designed like a maze, perhaps for the same reasons as architects do so in Inception.
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harry it's an *interestng* building :)
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jasnell Arnaud: What about the Food
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elf-pavlik try http://www.foodnotbombs.net/
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jasnell Sandro/Harry: Where we getting the funding for yummy foodstuffs.
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ben_thatmustbeme Sandro, is this the same room as IWC Cambridge last year?
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jasnell Arnaud: Harry/Sandro to add details to wiki
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elf-pavlik issue-6
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trackbot is looking up issue-6.
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trackbot issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/6
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elf-pavlik action-36
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RRSAgent sees no action items
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trackbot is looking up action-36.
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trackbot action-36 -- Sandro Hawke to Resolve issue 6 https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/6 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/36
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jasnell Sandro: Polycom/Zakim bridge for room
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jasnell Arnaud: That's it for F2F, please provide feedback on the agenda to mailing list or wiki
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elf-pavlik topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues
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jasnell Arnaud: Tracking of Issues and Actions
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bblfish issue-6?
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trackbot is looking up issue-6.
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trackbot issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/6
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jasnell Arnaud: Closing issue-6
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Arnaud https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised
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bblfish issue-15
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trackbot is looking up issue-15.
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trackbot issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- raised
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/15
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jasnell Arnaud: issue-15
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harry q+
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Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
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jasnell Elf: clarify AS2 overlaps with microformats and schema.org
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell Harry: w3c recs cannot have normative dependencies on non-normative specs
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jasnell Harry: specifically with regards to schema.org, we cannot normatively depend on it
#
tantek what makes a spec non-normative?
#
jasnell Harry: let's please stop bringing it up over and over
#
harry It keeps coming up on mailing lists again and again
#
jasnell Arnaud: schema.org is a live document
#
tantek why would we want to normatively depend on something that's been developed closed?
#
harry Please just read your email.
#
jasnell (harry, I'm scribing not commenting ;-) ...)
#
tantek even if it is published openly?
#
tantek schema.org is not openly controlled
#
jasnell Elf: How about microformats overlap
#
tantek and no idea who writes what behind schema, no revision history
#
bblfish Harry mentioned that some folks at w3c are working with schema.org to see how the w3c could tie in with it
#
tantek elf-pavlik, every microformats wiki edit has sourcing / accountability
#
tantek and barrier to edit on the wiki is very low
#
tantek contributions come from many people
#
bblfish harry mentioned ralf swick
#
jasnell Harry: keep in open but needs to depend on progress in other areas
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jasnell q+
#
Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud ack jasnell
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
harry Normative means that it has been stabilized so that there is a stable reference and through a process that is compatible with W3C's patent policy
#
tantek harry, by those requirements, microformats specs qualify, as do indieweb specs
#
tantek even if in draft form, they're already fairly stable
#
tantek URLs / references are stable
#
melvster thanks for explaining ...
#
Zakim + +1.408.335.aadd
#
harry Google has expressed they are interested in a W3C normative snapshot, but haven't done that yet. Ralph Swick is discussing with Guha.
#
tantek feature sets are stable
#
harry Re microformats, that's a question for W3C legal and I'll bring it up with Wendy Seltzer
#
harry Usually normative means ISO, IETF, other W3C specs that are Rec
#
harry q+
#
Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
#
bblfish I kind of agree there with harry and whoever spoke there
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek harry, I believe both microformats.org and indiewebcamp.com specs qualify for normative references
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jasnell Jasnell: I agree with Harry that schema.org should be on the agenda
KevinMarks joined the channel
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jasnell Harry: Will review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats
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tantek I don't because no schema companies participate in this WG
#
tantek we've been over this before
#
Loqi Aboyet made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82611&oldid=82605
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Arnaud action: harry to review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats
#
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent records action 1
#
trackbot Created ACTION-41 - Review with wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-10].
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tantek anyone that wants schema on the agenda should make sure to get schema companies to join social web wg
#
tantek otherwise I object to adding schema to the agenda
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Zakim -Ann
#
jasnell btw tantek... that wasn't a dig at microformats, it's just not a "normative spec" in the sense typically viewed within w3c/ietf etc
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jasnell Harry: keep it open as a placeholder for now
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tantek jasnell: I realize W3C is still learning / figuring out how to link to living specs.
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jasnell Harry: we should not have to keep reviewing it every meeting
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tantek even if living just means errata
#
jasnell tantek: agreed
#
Arnaud PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-15 as a placeholder, recognizing we can't do anything about it until the situation with schema.org is resolved
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elf-pavlik +1
#
bblfish well it makes sense to have this answer. Because I think that Elf is just keen to keep those groups on board.
#
tantek harry - I don't want schema on the agenda, even as a placeholder, until schema companies join the WG
#
jasnell +0
#
bblfish +1
#
ShaneHudson +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +0
#
wilkie +0
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Arnaud RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-15 as a placeholder, recognizing we can't do anything about it until the situation with schema.org is resolved
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jasnell Arnaud: Next, issue-16
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bblfish iiseu-16?
#
jasnell http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/16
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bblfish issue-16
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trackbot is looking up issue-16.
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trackbot issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- raised
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/16
#
harry understood Tantek, but Ralph is negotiating this with Google so we're just waiting to see if progress is made.
#
elf-pavlik dret ?
#
harry If not, we'll drop everything when we hit CR
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jasnell q+
#
Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack jasnell
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek I'm happy to discuss microformats2 - AS2 mappings
#
tantek in fact I think that *should* be on the agenda for the f2f
#
tantek PROPOSED: Discuss and figure out microformats2 - AS2 mappings at f2f
#
bret mappings++
#
Loqi mappings has 1 karma
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Arnaud PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-16
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tantek is filing bugs with Google tech support re: Hangouts iOS app failing to do touchtones this week.
#
elf-pavlik +1
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jasnell Jasnell: recommends opening -16
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jasnell +1
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Arnaud RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-16
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jasnell Arnaud: no objections, open -16
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jasnell issue -17: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/17
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trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
#
Arnaud issue-17?
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trackbot is looking up issue-17.
#
trackbot issue-17 -- Identity, Agent, Person, Persona, Account etc. need clarifications -- raised
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/17
#
bret can someone link that github issue?
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jasnell Elf: need to clarify things around Actors
#
jasnell q+
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bblfish very difficult to hear james
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elf-pavlik jasnell: we need to refine existing classes, possibly remove some or add new ones
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Arnaud PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-17
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elf-pavlik +1
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jasnell my apologies for audio issues
#
bblfish I wonder why we don't just use foaf
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jasnell Arnaud: open -17
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KevinMarks I wonder why no-one uses FOAF
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Arnaud RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-17
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bblfish foaf is pretty widely deployed KevinMarks
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tantek jasnell at least you have audio issue
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tantek bblfish: citation needed
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jasnell Arnaud: Proposal from tantek to discuss microformats2 + as2 mappings at f2f
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek is not on the call
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tantek thank you Arnaud
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ben_thatmustbeme had issues joining
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme - I proposed in IRC
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tantek ^^^
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika (muted),
#
Zakim ... bill-looby (muted), ShaneHudson (muted), Harry_Halpin, +1.408.335.aadd
#
elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/pendingreview
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KevinMarks Zakim aadd is me
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jasnell Arnaud: Tantek: just go ahead and add it to the agenda
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme see http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-03#t1425407002770
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jasnell Arnaud: one of the goals of the f2f needs to be to close as many issues as possible
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jasnell Arnaud: we have a list of open actions
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, i know, i was stating for Arnaud who asked for you to respond
#
tantek thanks Arnaud adding
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jasnell Harry: will review actions as soon as time is available
#
elf-pavlik i have 3 ready :)
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jasnell Arnaud: done tracking actions and issues
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jasnell Elf: Issue -7
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bill-looby James - if you want you can assign the Connections action to me
#
bret Zakim, who is talking?
#
Zakim I am sorry, bret; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
ben_thatmustbeme someone is causing feedback loop on audio
#
bblfish there is an echo
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Zakim I am sorry, bret; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
bret Zakim, who is making noise?
#
bblfish zakim who is making noise?
#
harry notes its 30 min. into call and we haven't gotten to user stories and API
#
Arnaud ISSUE-7?
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trackbot is looking up ISSUE-7.
#
trackbot ISSUE-7 -- Are AS consumers required to understand the pre-JSON-LD syntax? -- pending review
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/7
#
elf-pavlik jasnell: currently we require to provide compacted version of JSON-LD using normative @context
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elf-pavlik jasnell: question - do we need more detailed processing model
#
tantek hoping that context is not required, for publishing or consumption
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elf-pavlik jasnell: how two implementers can interpret it exactly in the same way
#
jasnell Arnaud: marking issue -7 as still open
#
tantek ASIDE: for f2f food preferences/requirements, for now I suggest adding in a parenthetical remark next to your name: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#Participation
#
elf-pavlik action-11
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trackbot is looking up action-11.
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trackbot action-11 -- Pavlik elf to Expand on Facebook APIs -- due 2014-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/11
#
jasnell (elf, thank you for helping scribe while I talk :-) ..)
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elf-pavlik action-34
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trackbot is looking up action-34.
#
trackbot action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34
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jasnell Elf: added expanded discussion of facebook api's to wiki
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harry Zakim, mute harry
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Zakim Harry_Halpin should now be muted
#
tantek wonders how long it will take Loqi to notice that I edited https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17
#
Zakim -ShaneHudson
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jasnell Elf: for #34, added discussion around microformats to wiki, needs review
#
harry we have some heavy echo
#
jasnell Arnaud, you're echo'ing like crazy
#
harry My opinion was index
#
bblfish I think it happens wehenver Elf is online.
#
harry or appendix
#
jasnell Elf: leave 34 open for feedback
#
Zakim +??P13
#
elf-pavlik action-39
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trackbot is looking up action-39.
#
trackbot action-39 -- Pavlik elf to Follow up with xAPI developers community -- due 2015-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/39
#
KevinMarks it may not be arnaud causing the echo
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ShaneHudson Zakim, ??P13 is me
#
Zakim +ShaneHudson; got it
#
ShaneHudson Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ShaneHudson should now be muted
#
jasnell Elf: had a call with xAPI, moved those discussions to IG
#
jasnell Elf: let's close 39 for now
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jasnell Arnaud: Closing 39
#
jasnell Arnaud: done with actions and issues
#
jasnell Arnaud: Next.. social api user stories
#
elf-pavlik topic: Social API User Stories
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jasnell Arnaud: vote ended
#
jasnell Arnaud: now to sort things out
#
elf-pavlik lost audio :(
#
jasnell Arnaud: Evan said he'd start sorting but he's not here... any updates?
#
Loqi aww, cheer up
#
harry I recommend that we try to agree on a process going forward
#
jasnell defer to next week?
#
harry with the stories
#
bblfish q+
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme No updates, but I am willing to try going through to sort myself
#
harry q+
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Zakim sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
#
Zakim Harry_Halpin should no longer be muted
#
harry Zakim, unmute me
#
tantek I'd like to at least gather the stories that we have *strong* consensus on
#
Arnaud https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories
#
tantek i.e. no -1s, and far more +1s than 0s
#
jasnell Henry: we need to look at the controversial items more
#
jasnell Henry: we need to understand the reasons for the disagreements.
#
tantek I think we should prioritize by strong consensus for, weak consensus for, weak consensus against, strong consensus against
#
tantek within that sorting, I agree that we need to broaden understanding of the reasons for disagreement
#
jasnell Arnaud: Agree. Three different buckets: (1) everyone agrees, (2) enough agreement but maybe some objections to deal with, (3) no support
#
jasnell Arnaud: differentiate between "Not interesting right now" vs "Not interesting at all"
#
bblfish q+
#
Zakim sees harry, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell Arnaud: Keep everything, just sort it
#
tantek Arnaud, I think it's important to distinguish *strong* agreement vs. weak/passive agreement
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Arnaud ack harry
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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jasnell Harry: Concerned that we'll go into endless user story discussion. By next week let's get everything sorted
#
Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82612&oldid=82611
#
Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82613&oldid=82612
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jasnell Harry: Rough consensus, Rough consensus with objections, Multiple objections
#
jasnell Harry: Get consensus face to face *before* f2f
#
tantek what if we did v1 core API using only user stories that have strong consensus?
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jasnell sigh
#
Arnaud ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell Harry: Get consensus *before* f2f
#
tantek that seems like a good way to get a minimum viable v1 social api
#
tantek I doubt we're going to resolve all user stories before f2f
#
harry Zakim mute me
#
tantek it's in only two weeks!
#
elf-pavlik tantek, we need to also clarify what you mean by v1...
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harry Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim Harry_Halpin should now be muted
#
elf-pavlik but maybe not now
#
harry I do not want to spend the entire f2f discussing user stories
#
tantek elf-pavlik: the first version of a social api we take to CR
#
harry that is likely a waste of time
#
harry i.e. the XG discussed user stories for about a year with no visible progress :)
#
tantek harry, we can timebox it
#
tantek harry - the XG didn't even document a canonical list of user stories
#
jasnell Harry: there are cases where we have the time, if we have the process, to get stories clarified where there are objections
#
tantek which is why we had to do it ourselves in the WG
#
harry No, it did - see wiki page
#
harry its just people keep adding new ones
#
jasnell s/Harry/Henry
#
tantek harry, this WG in two weeks produced better quality user stories / use-cases than all the XG work
#
harry The main difference is we had a time limit :)
#
tantek XG was kind of a disaster
#
ben_thatmustbeme I would suggest working with the More Stories page to attempt to do this, I have already done this
#
ben_thatmustbeme on some
#
tantek endless email threads
#
jasnell Arnaud: someone needs to take a pass at organizing
#
harry Well, it was a disaster insofar as we spent too much time on user stories
#
jasnell Arnaud: Evan was going to do it, not sure it happened yet.
#
harry In general, I suggest we try to get consensus on the 'core' before the f2f
#
ben_thatmustbeme q+
#
Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
#
jasnell Arnaud: any other volunteers just in case?
#
ben_thatmustbeme unmute me
#
tantek harry - it was a disaster in that it was email-only discussion about web.
#
jasnell (crickets)
#
bblfish I'll do it
#
Arnaud ack ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim unmutes ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
harry I'm happy to work with Evan as well.
#
jasnell Ben: volunteers to go through it
#
harry Note that we had telecons and a Twitter account for the XG, as well as a blog and wiki :)
#
melvster consensus is good but, there w3c is also committed openstand standards principles, such as scalability, that needs to be a consideration, imho
#
harry Thus, my proposal is 3 buckets:
#
harry 1) Clear consensus
#
tantek harry - when a groupd is dominated by email-list people, it doesn't produce a lot for the web
#
jasnell Ben: How do we deal with the -1's ...
#
harry 2) Rough consensus - with a few objections
#
tantek melvster - please leave aside "openstand" - openstand itself does not comply with openstand principles
#
harry 3) Multiple objections and lack of interest from implementers
#
tantek harry 1) is insufficient
#
jasnell Arnaud: if ben is willing to go through and move things around then great, but please coordinate with Evan
#
harry So we can then spend time at f2f addressing 2).
#
tantek really should distinguish STRONG consensus (i.e. majority +1s, no -1s)
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
tantek from weak consensus (no -1s)
#
bblfish q+
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell Arnaud: if anyone sees one of their stories being challenge, consider attempting to address the challenge by updating the story
#
Arnaud ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
jasnell Henry: what's the best way process wise?
#
tantek Arnaud, or withdraw user-story
#
tantek we should make a section for people to voluntarily withdraw user stories
#
jasnell Henry: feedback to mailing list or wiki? two days to write then feedback?
#
tantek perhaps postponed? or withdrawn for v1?
#
jasnell tantek: +1
#
KevinMarks mailing lists are terrible at consensus
#
tantek let's not waste time trying to resolve disputes on user stories that seem hopeless
#
tantek mailing-lists--
#
Loqi mailing-lists has -1 karma
#
jasnell who just spoke?
#
jasnell missed that last suggestion
#
elf-pavlik still trying to reconect with zakim...
#
tantek goodluck elf-pavlik
#
elf-pavlik voip from digitalbazaar works just fine
#
jasnell Arnaud: if you want to propose a modified version of a story, ping anyone who has objected to notify of new version, ask if that addresses the issue
#
elf-pavlik tantek thx!
#
jasnell Arnaud: as tantek suggests, people should consider pulling stories back out
#
wilkie unless they have nothing but +1s?
#
Zakim +??P22
#
jasnell Arnaud: want a formal action or...?
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P22 is me
#
Zakim +elf-pavlik; got it
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should no longer be muted
#
harry Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim I am sorry, harry; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
elf-pavlik Zakiml, mute me
#
jasnell lot's of static
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, who is making noise
#
bret Zakim, who is making noise?
#
Zakim I don't understand 'who is making noise', ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim I am sorry, bret; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
elf-pavlik sorry!
#
bblfish zakim mute ??P22
#
harry Zakim, mute elf-pavlik
#
Zakim elf-pavlik was already muted, harry
#
jasnell Ben: don't need a formal action
#
bret whats wrong with Zakim?
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
bblfish zakim, mute ??P22
#
Zakim sorry, bblfish, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P22
#
harry Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim Harry_Halpin was already muted, harry
#
jasnell Zakim, who is making noise
#
Zakim I don't understand 'who is making noise', jasnell
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute ??P22
#
harry hmmm
#
Zakim sorry, ben_thatmustbeme, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P22
#
bblfish zakim, mute P22
#
Zakim sorry, bblfish, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P22
#
harry Zakim might be overbooked
#
harry Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim I am sorry, harry; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
harry I have never seen that error before
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute elf-pavlik
#
Zakim elf-pavlik was already muted, ben_thatmustbeme
#
bblfish zakim, mute ?P22
#
Zakim sorry, bblfish, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ?P22
#
harry everyone mute themselves
#
Zakim -aaronpk
#
jasnell Arnaud: Everyone go on mute please
#
harry and then it will be revealed
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika (muted),
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ... bill-looby (muted), Harry_Halpin (muted), +1.408.335.aadd, ShaneHudson (muted), elf-pavlik.a
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme was already muted, ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim AdamB should now be muted
#
harry Zakim, mute AdamB
#
jasnell Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim jasnell should now be muted
#
bblfish zakim, who is making noise
#
Zakim I don't understand 'who is making noise', bblfish
#
harry Zakim mute Arnaud
#
wilkie Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim wilkie should now be muted
#
harry Zakim, unmute Arnaud
#
Zakim Arnaud was not muted, harry
#
harry Zakim, unmute AdamB
#
Zakim AdamB should no longer be muted
#
bblfish zakim, who is making noise
#
Zakim I don't understand 'who is making noise', bblfish
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who;s making noise?
#
Zakim I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
#
harry Zaim, mute dromasca
#
tantek I can attempt to group apparent STRONG consensus stories
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim apologizes, elf-pavlik; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
#
harry Zakim, mute jasnell
#
Zakim jasnell was already muted, harry
#
jasnell Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim jasnell should no longer be muted
#
harry Zakim, mute bblfish
#
Zakim bblfish should now be muted
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish (muted), wilkie (muted), Tsyesika
#
Arnaud zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ... (muted), bill-looby (muted), Harry_Halpin (muted), +1.408.335.aadd, ShaneHudson (muted), elf-pavlik.a
#
Zakim Arnaud should now be muted
#
AdamB zakim needs a mute all
#
jasnell well, this is fun
#
harry Zakim, elf-pavlik.a
#
Zakim I don't understand 'elf-pavlik.a', harry
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute Tsyesika
#
Zakim Tsyesika was already muted, elf-pavlik
#
harry Zakim, mute wilkie
#
Arnaud zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim wilkie was already muted, harry
#
Zakim Arnaud should no longer be muted
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), bret (muted), Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish (muted), wilkie (muted), Tsyesika
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Zakim ... (muted), bill-looby (muted), Harry_Halpin (muted), +1.408.335.aadd, ShaneHudson (muted), elf-pavlik.a
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Loqi Bill-looby made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/Patterns]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82614&oldid=81543
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elf-pavlik Zakim--
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harry Zakim, mute Tsyesika
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Zakim Tsyesika was already muted, harry
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Loqi Zakim has -1 karma
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harry wird
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KevinMarks I'm +1.408.335.aadd,
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bblfish zakim, who's making noise
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Zakim I don't understand 'who's making noise', bblfish
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KevinMarks but I'm muted at my end
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jasnell Arnaud: may not be able to proceed with the noise
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harry I suggest we end meeting early, this might be a Zakim issue
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jasnell Arnaud: let's try
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harry or just take meeting to IRC
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jasnell ahhhh
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jasnell sweet relief
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bret whoever just did something, thankyou
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KevinMarks what changed?
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harry not sure, we started muted people but it wasn't clear - my suspicion is Zakim may have been overloaded.
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jasnell Arnaud: anything else to discuss?
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harry we are overbooked right now
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tantek apparently I am not missing much in audio?
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jasnell Arnaud: Elf added bullets.. want to discuss?
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elf-pavlik i don't want to unmute, needed to use different device
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bret tantek: its fixed now
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jasnell tantek: you missed some wonderful static
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harry (we will be upgrading Zakim later in the year BTW)
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harry Zakim, unmute elf-pavlik.a
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Zakim elf-pavlik.a was not muted, harry
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elf-pavlik mostly IG work on Vocabulary terms based on User Stories
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harry Zakim, unmute elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Vocabulary_TF/Mapping_API_User_Stories_to_Vocabulary_terms
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bblfish q+
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Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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jasnell Arnaud: if there's nothing else for today, postpone for next week?
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees bblfish, jasnell on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack bblfish
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Zakim unmutes bblfish
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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bret i added an item to the agenda, do you want to cover it this week?
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jasnell Henry: there's a confusion between what API's are doing, what vocabularies are doing, what clients are doing, etc
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bret last item on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-03#Additional_Agenda_Items
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jasnell Henry: there are misunderstandings around the user stories due to confusion between roles in the API and Vocabulary, etc
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jasnell Arnaud: let's not speculate and let elf comment
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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harry bblfish, I think people have different opinions here
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jasnell Henry: what is the role of the API vs. the role of the vocabulary
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elf-pavlik e.g. http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/
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tantek attempting to follow by IRC
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bblfish +1
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tantek wait, is anyone here running hydra on their personal site?
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tantek I'm really confused why it keeps coming up
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bblfish who just spoke
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tantek is it like, cut off one hydra discussion, two more spring up in its place?
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bret Zakim, unmute me
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Zakim bret should no longer be muted
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jasnell Arnaud: remaining issues in last 5 mins... bret...?
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bblfish the last person to speak was not logged
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elf-pavlik who's on the call?
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bret can you here me?
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, AdamB, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), bret, Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie (muted), Tsyesika (muted), bill-looby
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Zakim ... (muted), Harry_Halpin (muted), +1.408.335.aadd, ShaneHudson (muted), elf-pavlik.a
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bret darn
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harry zakim, unmute bret
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Zakim bret was not muted, harry
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harry weird!
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jasnell Jasnell: agreed with Henry that the role of the API and Vocabulary need to be clarified
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harry bret, you may be muted locally
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harry or you can type in IRC
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elf-pavlik bret did you mute locally?
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bret ill just use irc
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wilkie therefore, technology is not great :)
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jasnell Jasnell: indicated that clarification would help determine what parts of the vocabulary can be simplified, if any
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bret I just wanted to discuss how this API can be accessed
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elf-pavlik bret, can you post more info to mailing list?
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jasnell Arnaud: how do we even find the entry point
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KevinMarks technology is what doesn't work yet
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harry I think this is the 'discovery' problem ala WebFinger
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bret I can bring it up at another meeting
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elf-pavlik LOL ;-) here WebFinger comes ...
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jasnell Henry: following links
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KevinMarks you want a rel link on page
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jasnell Arnaud: we had the same question in LDP, settled on doing nothing
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tantek bret - perhaps add as first agenda item for 03-10 call?
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tantek it's amazing how productive doing nothing can be
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jasnell Arnaud: how do start when using the web. Usually starts with search engine or URL to somewhere
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elf-pavlik please read: http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/
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harry I imagine some link following will work out
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jasnell tantek: +1
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bret i can talk about it more when my aduio works
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bret sry
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jasnell :-)
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bret i had a small example to show
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harry however, I'm not really into re-inventing the wheel unless we have some success in terms of implementation.
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harry q+
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Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik anything for IG tomorrow?
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim unmutes Harry_Halpin
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bret lets defert
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tantek citation, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1104001/quotes?item=qt1412166
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bret defer*
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bret srry guys
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jasnell Jasnell: defer to next week to let bret comment further
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jasnell Harry: it's worth discussing, at the same time it's easy to rathole. We don't want yet another discovery dead end
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jasnell Harry: webfinger is one possible way but we can figure it out
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tantek harry, do you support webfinger on your personal site?
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bret is http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/More_user_stories#URL_based_API_Entrypoint in scope?
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tantek if not, I don't believe it is "one possible way" :P
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jasnell Harry: if we have some New Exciting And Wonderful Discovery mechanism on the table, then ok let's discuss, but if not, let's focus on API
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harry No, but large providers have historically supported it - at some point Google did.
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harry I believe they may have dropped
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tantek sounded like bret's issue was more conneg than discovery
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elf-pavlik nothing specific, just invitation!
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jasnell Arnaud: closing, please provide feedback to IG agenda. IG call tomorrow
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tantek harry, yeah, at some point, then it broke. hence fragile.
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jasnell Arnaud: Thank you all for joining
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elf-pavlik jasnell++
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Loqi jasnell has 3 karma
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harry +1 Arnaud
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tantek no one noticed it was broken
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wilkie jasnell++
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Loqi jasnell has 4 karma
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bret tantek: ill raise it next week
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tantek because no one was consuming Google's webfinger in realtime
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harry pandoc on Amy's page works well
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wilkie pandoc.amy.gy
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tantek or for any practical reason
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bret unfortunately audio was acting up today
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elf-pavlik jasnell, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Scribes
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KevinMarks I don't even have email on my personal site so WebFinger is irrelevant
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Zakim -Tsyesika
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bret bye
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Zakim -AdamB
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elf-pavlik Arnaud++
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Zakim -Harry_Halpin
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wilkie http://pandoc.amy.gy/
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Zakim -Arnaud
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jasnell Arnaud: all done
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Loqi Arnaud has 3 karma
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Arnaud trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been elf-pavlik, +1.314.777.aaaa, AdamB, +1.617.247.aabb, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, rhiaro, bret, Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell,
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Zakim ... +33.6.43.93.aacc, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika, Ann, ShaneHudson, bill-looby, Harry_Halpin, +1.408.335.aadd
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Zakim -bret
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Zakim -bblfish
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Zakim -jasnell
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Zakim -ShaneHudson
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tantek thus I question any claims of webfinger deployment
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Zakim -Sandro
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Zakim -rhiaro
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Zakim -bill-looby
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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Zakim -ben_thatmustbeme
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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Zakim - +1.408.335.aadd
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RRSAgent I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-actions.rdf :
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RRSAgent ACTION: harry to review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats [1]
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RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-irc#T18-20-15
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Zakim -dromasca
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elf-pavlik jasnell, you can also ask rhiaro here for help if you get lost...
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rhiaro waves
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Zakim -elf-pavlik.a
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tantek waves
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bret elf-pavlik: i added an additional user story: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/More_user_stories#URL_based_API_Entrypoint
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elf-pavlik tantek, next week we can get to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-03#Additional_Agenda_Items
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Zakim -wilkie
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elf-pavlik bret++
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Loqi bret has 51 karma
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elf-pavlik did you look at http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/ by any chance?
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elf-pavlik it does what you want but Read/Write
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wilkie thanks for the call
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bret elf-pavlik: is that q for me?
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elf-pavlik bret, yes
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tantek elf-pavlik: does your personal site support hydra?
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ben_thatmustbeme hopefully everyone can get in next time without trouble
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elf-pavlik tantek, i'll ping you once i adde it
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tantek shipping++
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Loqi shipping has 1 karma
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elf-pavlik tantek, trying it here https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-provider/tree/hydra
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Arnaud rrsagent, make log public
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bret elf-pavlik: im not familiar with how hydra works
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tantek elf-pavlik: that's a source tree - let me know when you have a deployment
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elf-pavlik as i said, will do
RRSAgent joined the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-irc
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elf-pavlik i hope before f2f
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Arnaud rrsagent, make log public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, Arnaud
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tantek welcome back RRSAgent, who paged you?
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Arnaud I did
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Arnaud the logs aren't accessible for some reason
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elf-pavlik Arnaud, http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-03/line/1425405432291
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elf-pavlik it looks like like they should
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elf-pavlik i just requested same config for IG after last call
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tantek curious
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Arnaud oh I know they "should"
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Arnaud but it tends to often fail for some reason unfortunately
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elf-pavlik Arnaud, harry any way to help with fixing W3C setup?
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elf-pavlik for example digitalbazaar has VoIP working much better - used in Credentials CG and some other CGs
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Arnaud rrsagent, generate minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-minutes.html Arnaud
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Loqi Jsnell made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82615&oldid=82592
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Arnaud ok, that did it
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Arnaud rrsagent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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elf-pavlik tantek, do you plan to publish AS2.0 ?
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bret elf-pavlik: to answer your question, not haven't seen that before
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jasnell https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-03-minutes
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elf-pavlik jasnell++
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Loqi jasnell has 5 karma
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elf-pavlik jasnell, FYI using 'topic:' gives you headings in minutes
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jasnell good to know, thanks elf
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elf-pavlik tantek, i also wonder if you still plan to review microformats examples
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elf-pavlik action-26
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trackbot action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN
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trackbot is looking up action-26.
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/26
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tantek elf-pavlik: I've been discouraged by the notification that there are 900+ of them
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tantek I don't even understand why a spec needs 900+ examples :(
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elf-pavlik i have automated tests for comparing Turtle to JSON-LD and now work on automating RDFa to JSON-LD comparison
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tantek that seems to me a huge mistake
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Loqi it'll be ok
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tantek in complexity
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tantek Loqi, I'm not so sure
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elf-pavlik tantek, do you mind if we drop microformats examples from the spec?
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tantek elf-pavlik: why?
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tantek elf-pavlik: I think we need to rethink AS2 in terms of what's necessary for approved user stories, and no more
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elf-pavlik i don't see (currently) a way to automaticly verify that they have same data as normative JSON-LD ones
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tantek perhaps the normative JSON-LD ones have too much
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tantek that's my understanding
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tantek and too much means confusion to consuming code
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elf-pavlik tantek, can you pick just few which you will see from your perspective core?
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tantek elf-pavlik: I think starting with the user-stories is a good first step
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elf-pavlik not reviewing even 5 examples befcause 900+ exist doesn't sound like reasonable argument to me
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elf-pavlik can you pick examples which fit user stories which you +1 ?
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tantek elf-pavlik: or rather the opposite
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tantek that is, reviewing 5 examples is reasonable
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tantek better to reframe such statements as positives :)
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elf-pavlik can you please review even just 5?
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tantek probably
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tantek I'm wondering if we need an AS-light that only does what's needed for strong consensus user stories and nothing more
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elf-pavlik we have 'objects', 'activities', 'collections'
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tantek elf-pavlik: seems like too much
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tantek in the simpler indieweb / microformats model
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tantek just posts
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tantek i.e. objects
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tantek activities are just a subset of that (i.e. "responses")
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tantek and a "collection" is just a type of post
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Loqi Bill-looby made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/IBM Connections API]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82616&oldid=0
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Loqi Jsnell made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-03-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82617&oldid=0
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tantek I'm glad we got drafts of the AS2 specs published in W3C, at least for legal/IP reasons
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elf-pavlik how do you see collection defined by a tag ?
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tantek but frankly I'm not sure how practical it is
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tantek and I would like to invite alternative minimal proposals
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tantek elf-pavlik: can you provide me a permalnk to the first microformats example in the AS spec?
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bret wowza, thats a long list
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tantek bret?
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bret http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html
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tantek elf-pavlik: aaronpk for example publishes collection posts. see indiewebcamp.com/collection
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elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#example-1
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tantek elf-pavlik: wow <link> inside div? this is horrible markup
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elf-pavlik how about https://twitter.com/t/lists
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elf-pavlik tantek, github PR with improved example?
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KevinMarks that isn't a microformats example
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elf-pavlik like i did here https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/commit/aaee3f0032d520819a96a8f3cb5105d58ae8081f
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tantek elf-pavlik: can you provide a permalink to that example to the github version which I should edit?
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tantek in the github version
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KevinMarks wtf is it using an urn? is Martin dead?
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/blob/master/activitystreams2.html#L302
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tantek also I find it funny that a "minimal" example has an image
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tantek a minimal example IMO would be just a note
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tantek thanks elf-pavlik that looks closer to something I can edit
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ShaneHudson Whenever I see an example with an urn I get put off, and I know what it is. I bet most devs don't.
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tantek yeah urn examples make it look like it's not meant for the web
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tantek alright, signing off #social to go look at example. ttyl
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elf-pavlik i recommend PR on github and discuss it further there!
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elf-pavlik just ++ each other on IRC will not change the spec :P
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Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Scribes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82619&oldid=82552
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Zakim disconnecting the lone participant, elf-pavlik, in T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
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Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
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Zakim Attendees were elf-pavlik, +1.314.777.aaaa, AdamB, +1.617.247.aabb, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, rhiaro, bret, Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, +33.6.43.93.aacc, bblfish, wilkie,
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Zakim ... Tsyesika, Ann, ShaneHudson, bill-looby, Harry_Halpin, +1.408.335.aadd
ShaneHudson and jasnell joined the channel
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melvster elf-pavlik: +1 drop microformats examples ... caveat: if mf have significant deployment in a social web context (I dont know the stats here) then that's a good argument to keep them as examples
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melvster consuming both json-ld and mf2 may be a challenge for the tooling
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elf-pavlik melvster, i would look at using mf vocab with RDFa :P
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39#issuecomment-75502652
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melvster elf-pavlik: how does this fit in with? http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab if at all?
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elf-pavlik if people want HTML that would make things simplest
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elf-pavlik i didn't know http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
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melvster elf-pavlik: btw take back my earlier comment, your / identity may not be thought of as a document and a person because of the 303 by some tooling ... I think this is a grey area in many people's mind ... not my place to make a sweeping statement ... however having TWO identities one at foo and one at foo/ may be a big challenge for consumers and tooling to work with
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elf-pavlik melvster, why? they make two distinct URIs
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melvster microformats would be easier for me to work with if there was a namespace behind it
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elf-pavlik seeing them somehow related sounds like not following axoim of URI opacity...
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melvster redirects are typically a pain to work with, and this pattern I could imagine being VERY confusing for developers to understand, I dont know how much tooling supports it, and those that dont how long it may take (if ever) to prioritize such a pattern
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melvster uris are not opaque ever
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melvster that aside, the question in my mind is whether this is an edge case, and whether it will be supported, that remains to be seen ... one way to get to make supporting it attractive is to give good reasons such as wide adoption, but not every pattern is widely adopted, some fail without patches ever getting upstream
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Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82620&oldid=82613
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elf-pavlik i think we may stumble again at httprange-14 here http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/14
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elf-pavlik i also start collecting notes relevant to it here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject
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elf-pavlik i need to read again http://www.w3.org/TR/urls-in-data/
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melvster elf-pavlik: just the architecture of the web ... 303 was lobbied for, it got some people behind it, now it's up to those people to evangelize and get widespread adoption ... then get patches in the tooling upstream, but not every new pattern thrives, imho, this is one that will not, time will tell on this one, use at your own risk
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melvster it's an antipattern for vanity folks imho
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elf-pavlik melvster, i don't worry to much about 'old' tooling ... all software needs new generation of implementations at some pint
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elf-pavlik s/pint/point/
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melvster well i think you're using old tooling, and im using new tooling ... but of course im biased! :D
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melvster eg i dont think payments will work with your pattern
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melvster but without having a debate about what's old and what's new ... i believe i work on current tooling and I dont think your pattern is supported today
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elf-pavlik on positive side - blank nodes don't have problem with httprange-14 ;)
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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melvster sure they do
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elf-pavlik how come?
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melvster blank nodes should also be avoided if possible, axiom 0 of the web is to give anything of not a URI
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melvster blank nodes are just things without a name, you still should try and name them
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melvster one of the main exercises in web technology is naming things
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melvster in an ideal world bnodes would be a temporary state
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melvster they are quite hard to deal with without a query language too
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melvster also consider a blank node that has an owl : sameAs
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melvster or any number of equivalence relations
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melvster the inferences can cause conflicts
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elf-pavlik in case you want some funny RDF mindf**s https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2014Dec/0274.html
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melvster elf-pavlik: im sorry if it comes across this way, the conversation is simply about naming strategies, since you brought up the axiom, ill just note that the first axiom is that when you name things and give them a URI they are "on the web", so that's the first goal of anyone that would want to follow the axiom, logically it means to try and avoid bnodes, if that makes sense
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elf-pavlik melvster, http://manu.sporny.org/2013/rdf-identifiers/#comment-3369
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melvster bnodes have their place, but just be aware they break lots of things, so that's a good argument not to use them (putting the axioms aside)
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melvster they are not good for interoperability, if that's important to ou
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melvster s/ou/you
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elf-pavlik i tend to avoid them ...
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melvster ditto
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aaronpk wtf is a blank node
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melvster some say they should not be part of RDF, but Im not so extreme, i simply say better to avoid them
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melvster aaronpk: a blank node is an unnamed subject, with attribute values
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, i recommend article by manu sporny i just linked to
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melvster e.g. [] a Person ; name "Aaron" ; location "Earth" .
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aaronpk why isn't everything just a URL, then blank nodes are just 404 not found pages
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melvster aaronpk: many people think like you ... however some argue the it's convenient to work with things that dont have a URL, perhaps later they can get one is a possible scenario
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, enjoy ;) http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-rdf11-concepts-20140225/#section-blank-nodes
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melvster personally I lean towards your POV
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aaronpk i mean if it doesn't have a URL it's not really on the web
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melvster yes this is the first axiom of the web, I agree
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, we don't only talk about web *pages* ...
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elf-pavlik familiar with httprange-14 ? https://www.w3.org/wiki/HttpRange14Webography
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melvster tl;dr it's a centralization vs decentralization argument ... should the web be like a piece of paper that anything can be written on ... or should the paper (ie the web page) be tightly coupled to the the data ... the 2nd argument has been lobbied for, and the web has become more centralized as a result, but the original design of the web is of modularity and loose coupling
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melvster each will have their own point of view on that, so it's considered a debate by the centralists, but in reality there's no debate at all, just different ways of doing things
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, we had serious conversation with melvster but for me httprange-14 and blank nodes need some sense of humor not to drive one crazy :)
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melvster +1
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melvster im all for sense of humor, but it does lead to systems that dont interoperate with the original vision of the web, which I think is a shame
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melvster i dont think centralization vs decentralization will ever have a resolution ... my hope is that both can live together ... but one side is open one is not
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melvster aaronpk: but im with you, give things a URL, put them on the web, and you will tend to have fewer problems
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aaronpk melvster++
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Loqi melvster has 2 karma
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Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82621&oldid=82620
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elf-pavlik melvster, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2014Sep/0106.html
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elf-pavlik ;)
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melvster at the end of the day tantek has the right attitude, if you believe in a technology go out and build something with it, dont debate, then people will say "hey, I want to do that too" ... at that point mailing list debates are forgotten
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elf-pavlik melvster++
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Loqi melvster has 3 karma
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elf-pavlik tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 160 karma
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melvster i should get my bot in here and do real payments :)
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elf-pavlik melvster, we need to replace 'n karma' with 'n karmic interactions' :P
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melvster as i said, im not in the camp that thinks bnodes are evil or wrong, but I think best practice is to try and avoid it (you'll find it's not always possible or practical) ... timbl is right *as usual*
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elf-pavlik timbl++
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Loqi timbl has 1 karma
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melvster i run realtime payment bots on freenode
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melvster using 5 star linked data
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melvster they are also w3c web payments payment processors
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melvster but the problem with w3c payments is that you cant transfer from one processor to another with the current spec, so I dont see it as that useful for me at the moment
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elf-pavlik melvster, https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/529406410262458368
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melvster it's not even clear how that will ever happen
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Loqi @elfpavlik :: #IndieWeb karma & http://tav.espians.com/pecu-allocations-by-tav.html @indiewebcamp @Espians @unhosted @punk_money @tav++ http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2011/02/12/1/loqi-the-friendly-irc-bot http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-27/line/1414435772932
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melvster elf-pavlik: but can I spend that karma, or can I see it on the web?
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elf-pavlik i really need to get back on transfering shares of *real* stuff http://www.w3.org/community/webcurrencies/wiki/Assets_Shares
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melvster 100,000+ merchants now accept crypto currency
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melvster hardest thing for a currency is to get merchant adoption
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elf-pavlik why spend? you can reclaim your real assets
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melvster yes even better
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melvster it would be nice if everyone thought that way
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elf-pavlik i need km on european bus lines and railways
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elf-pavlik sometimes also some gasoline
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elf-pavlik always kWh of electricty and as we speak now kB of bandwith ...
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elf-pavlik i need to log stuff well to get really good forcasts of my economic needs
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melvster elf-pavlik: do you use bitcoin?
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, has very inspiring http://aaronparecki.com/metrics
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melvster i log everything now
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melvster using linked data
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melvster Melvin Carvalho
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melvster completed 250 marks of work - 4000 marks today
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melvster
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melvster 3 hours ago
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elf-pavlik marks?
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elf-pavlik don't remember it from my natural sciences class ;)
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elf-pavlik i like units i can find in tools like http://www.unitconverters.net/
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elf-pavlik melvster, do you know where i can get URIs for all those units?
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elf-pavlik btw https://medium.com/@dpjanes/one-url-the-semantic-sensor-revolution-58b6d8c86c0f
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elf-pavlik jsonld++
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Loqi jsonld has 2 karma
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melvster elf-pavlik: https://github.com/project-bitmark/marking/wiki
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elf-pavlik \o/ https://iotdb.org/pub/iot-unit.html
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melvster 1000 marks = 1 bitmark
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melvster it's a crypto currency designed for web reputation
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elf-pavlik re: reputation - https://plus.google.com/events/cl69tj842bnes1i08b3sqc585uk
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melvster elf-pavlik: saw it ... commented on your facebook post
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melvster just use the web ...
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melvster we're doing it already
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melvster back to work ...
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elf-pavlik ah, true
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elf-pavlik melvster++
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Loqi melvster has 4 karma
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melvster elf-pavlik: http://klaranet.com/recent ... http://klaranet.com/.well-known/ni/sha-256/NnZLREVmTEpOWWRXWHhrL3ZvTVVEaWlJYjRuNEk1M21WN1RyVDl0WVppST0 ... http://graphite.ecs.soton.ac.uk/browser/?uri=http://klaranet.com/.well-known/ni/sha-256/NnZLREVmTEpOWWRXWHhrL3ZvTVVEaWlJYjRuNEk1M21WN1RyVDl0WVppST0
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melvster ( 3 links )
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melvster an example reputation : http://klaranet.com/recent?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fprojectbitmark.slack.com%2Fteam%2Fdbkeys%23this
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elf-pavlik melvster, i need to read up on bitmakr
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melvster most of the work goes on in the slack project
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melvster speaking of which ... back to my linked data slack clone :)
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Streaming & Push]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82622&oldid=81018
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elf-pavlik melvster++ ^
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Loqi melvster has 5 karma
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melvster http://www.w3.org/blog/data/2015/03/03/a-writable-web-based-on-ldp/
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stevenroose hi guys
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stevenroose i'm following the social work group since a week or two
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stevenroose I'd like to know what the latest developments
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stevenroose as I understand it, the best path to go with is to define a standard for social data discovery that can be adopted by social networks
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stevenroose f.e. something that can make Diaspora communicate with pump.io or GNU Social and vice-versa
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stevenroose in the best case, Twitter and Facebook could also adopt it
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AdamB how big is the current user base of Diaspora, pump.io etc ?
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elf-pavlik AdamB, http://the-federation.info/
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elf-pavlik stevenroose, hi
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elf-pavlik busy now with other e-meeting ...
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stevenroose is pump.io included in that metric elf-pavlik ?
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elf-pavlik i don't think so! you can sometimes catch jaywink here - he made them
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stevenroose considering the fact that people have been talking about this for a decade, it seems like it's only dreaming
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stevenroose but things like seeing a new Activity Streams 2.0 spec being worked on this very moment keeps me thinking it might change
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stevenroose too bad that initiatives like Diaspora and Pump do not get the attention they desirve
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AdamB elf-palvik++ for the link
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Loqi elf-palvik has 1 karma
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AdamB elf-pavlik++ for the link
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Loqi elf-pavlik has 7 karma
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elf-pavlik stevenroose, Evan (leading pump.io work) chairs this group...
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elf-pavlik jaywink from Diaspora also joined
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stevenroose so, what are the latest developments?
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories