#social 2019-12-11
2019-12-11 UTC
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dansup jaywink[m]: they work for me
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jaywink[m] > <@irc_dansup:cybre.space> jaywink[m]: they work for me
# jaywink[m] cool, /me hopes to get lucky one day :)
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# nightpool[m] jaywink: send contact@socialhub.activitypub.rocks an email with details so we can take a look at the issue
# jaywink[m] cool will do if I witness another missing notification. have checked settings and spam
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@jkmcnk ↩️ @Pinboard yeah, decent food, might help him think of things that already exist. https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ :D (twitter.com/_/status/1204770761996673029)
# melody decentralization makes all of the problems he's talking about in there harder, not easier, and looking towards blockchain tech for answers makes me less than optimistic about the possibilities
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@RickiEmeEme ↩️ @jack What's wrong with this one?
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204772440112586754)
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@hex ↩️ Here you go @jack. Now you can spend the money you've saved on hiring people who actually know how to deal with the Nazis on your platform
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204772879889555456)
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@decibyte ↩️ Hvis @jack løftede blikket fra egen navle, ville han hurtigt opdage at det allerede findes. Lad os håbe han sætter sine resurser ind der: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204772984990392320)
# @decibyte ↩️ @jack I hope you'll spend your resources supporting this initiative, instead of reinventing the wheel: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204774300559052806)
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@Teknari ↩️ @nic__carter Ummmm, we have one.
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204774927716495364)
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@JohnShaftFr ↩️ @jack Five people to read @w3c 's ActivityPub standard. Seriously ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204775475383611400)
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@mgattozzi Hey @jack Activity Pub already exists and it's under the W3C just use that and don't push your own standard like @Google does with AMP:
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204777514431856640)
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@nightpool who wants to tell him we already have an open, extensible and decentralized standard ready to go https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub @MastodonProject (twitter.com/_/status/1204777743411531778)
# nightpool[m] ha
# trwnh needs more blockchain
# melody I am the most skeptical of blockchain but AP leaves a lot to be desired at twitter scale and doesn't have any realistic mechanism for money to move through the platform, which seems like a high-level design goal for them
# melody so I also don't think it's wrong to continue exploring new options
# melody I think twitter are the wrong people to do it and blockchain tech is barking up the wrong tree, but AP would be the wrong solution for what they have in mind
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@badtakesbykate ↩️ @jack huh I wonder which w3c recommendation describes a decentralized standard for social media (and more)
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204779650049814530)
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@_xerz_ ↩️ Thank you for your interest, @jack. I strongly suggest talking with and collaborating with @SocialWebWG and @MastodonProject, which as you should know already provide working decentralized social network platforms which Twitter can become a part of. (twitter.com/_/status/1204781317914873859)
# nightpool[m] melody (IRC): i'm not sure what you mean by moving money through the network being a high-level goal for them? I didn't see that mentioned in the thread, he was just drawing a parallel to the work Square was doing on their own decentralized platform.
# melody They are very explicitly looking specifically for blockchain people
# @_xerz_ ↩️ For the best of the Internet, society and mankind, it is of upmost importance to get as many agents as possible in. I would also personally like to see @WHATWG, @mozilla, @eff, @fsf, @joindiaspora, #Pleroma involved as they can provide further expertise and on the development of (twitter.com/_/status/1204782536821542913)
# melody You may have to read between the lines a little bit, but one of their goals is 100% a platform that is inherently monetizable, and AP is the wrong fit for that
# @_xerz_ ↩️ For the best of the Internet, society and mankind, it is of upmost importance to get as many agents as possible in. I would also personally like to see @WHATWG, @mozilla, @eff, @fsf, @joindiaspora, #Pleroma involved as they can provide further expertise and agreement (twitter.com/_/status/1204783099919372288)
# @_xerz_ ↩️ For the best of the Internet, society and mankind, it is of upmost importance to get as many agents as possible in. I would also personally like to see @WHATWG, @mozilla, @eff, @fsf, @joindiaspora, #Pleroma involved as they can provide further expertise and consensus. (twitter.com/_/status/1204783617861402625)
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@forteller ↩️ This is amazing! There is an existing decentralized standard, though. It's called ActivityPub, and is a W3C standard. If it's not perfect for you, I'm sure it's still better to help improve it than to start from scratch https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/6785 https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ @cwebber (twitter.com/_/status/1204784583591501824)
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@tjohnhos ↩️ @wires_wires isn't there already https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ , or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software) ? (twitter.com/_/status/1204786101145276416)
# melody it's gonna be impossible to talk in here for the rest of the day at least, huh
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@stephan_ssc ↩️ @Numerama @jack Ou ActivityPub, emmené par le W3C.
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204786528590938114)
# nightpool[m] lol
# nightpool[m] probably
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@yogthos ↩️ @jack You do realize ActivityPub exists, that it's a W3C spec, and there's a huge ecosystem around it right? https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204787601032409088)
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@asoplata ↩️ PLEASE go with ActivityPub https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ it's already a formal standard, recommended by W3, and in active use by Mastodon and the rest of the Fediverse of decentralized social media apps. There's already a large community of decentralized social media there, join! (twitter.com/_/status/1204787749691297793)
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@dwmatiz ↩️ Such standard already exists, @jack, it's called #ActivityPub. There are implementations of it. There are servers using them. There are USERS already using that decentralised standard.
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204790040829857793)
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@syllablehq ↩️ Here is the original tweet: https://twitter.com/jack/status/1204766078468911106
As many people mention in that thread, it's worth noting that an open standard federation protocol already exists - ActivityPub. It will be interesting to see how @Twitter integrates with ActivityPub.
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204791108364054534)
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# melody From where I sit I'm still wondering how we expect, without relying on publicInbox which we know is broken, twitter to deliver activities to like multiple millions of recipients, the size of the addressing alone is an issue
# melody I don't think AP is the right fit for twitter scale, and I don't think it has to be, but pretending it's ready out of the box and fit for purpose is really disingenuous
# nightpool[m] public inbox is somewhat broken but it's better then the alternative
# melody That's arguable
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@jackyalcine ↩️ I'm not like talking shit. I'm being so deadass.
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/
http://activitystrea.ms/
This specification is so DETAILED. It can capture everything Twitter currently does and so much more! (twitter.com/_/status/1204793649608814592)
# nightpool[m] I agree that there are definitely going to be challenges using AP at Twitter scale but it's a much more solid platform to iterate on then anything else that exists
# melody I think "don't try to be twitter scale" is a better solution than publicInbox
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@DavidWolfpaw I encourage Twitter to contribute. But you don't need to develop a standard, since the W3C has a spec standard already in ActivityPub. I cannot assume that you don't know this already though. https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204794028857929738)
# melody not for twitter obviously but for everyone else
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@WJeffreyBrown ↩️ This is an idiotic move. There is already open open and decentralized standard for social media.
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
Just more proof that @Jack is the Gavin Belson of the real world.
Up next: "Box" (twitter.com/_/status/1204794417690894336)
# melody I just think it's better to be honest about the flaws and limitations in the spec & protocol here than to blindly promote it even in use cases you know it's not ready or appropriate for
# melody the fediverse also still doesn't actually have solutions to twitter's abuse problems and I don't think AP is equipped to handle them, or the sheer volume of content that twitter federating would bring, twitter starting to federate would bring down some smaller AP servers in *minutes*
# lain_soykaf sorry for being a bit out of the loop on this, but what kind of AP events / organization will there actually be at fosdem?
# lain_soykaf and/or where can i read about that
# melody i understand being salty about jack kinda wandering into the space like he owns the place and not mentioning the prior art, but there's actual real serious problems that would need to be tackled if twitter were gonna move to AP for real and not just as the premise of a clapback
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@wendy_a_reid You mean #ActivityPub? https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204798207198298113)
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@dj_walnut ↩️ @_xerz_ @jack @bluesky @paraga @SocialWebWG @MastodonProject @WHATWG @mozilla @EFF @fsf @joindiaspora lol pleroma's to cool for twitter (twitter.com/_/status/1204799304369504258)
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@lazerwalker Man, it really would be great if some sort of widely-accepted standards body would think about developing an open and decentralized standard for social media.
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204801720729120768)
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# lain_soykaf officially too cool for twitter
# @jackyalcine ↩️ Yo. Please look into https://indieweb.org/Category:building-blocks or even http://activitystrea.ms + https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/ and don’t force users into a technology stack (blockchain-adjacency) that isn’t people-centric. (twitter.com/_/status/1204806884466794498)
# jacky abuse in twitter isn't a focus of twitter at all
# jacky it really hasn't been
# jacky _BUT_ they can get the funds and "influence" to build a more focused team
# jacky and if it's relatively open, it can indirectly benefit everyone
# jacky I do agree melody
# jacky also re: abuse in fedi
# jacky I legit do not think it's been a top 5 priority for most projects, if any
# jacky it's been more on "hardening features" than "hm, how do I shield this agent from things they explicitly wish not to engage yet"
# melody cynically, i think twitter is looking at this specifically because they see the writing on the wall re: regulations and they see centralization as a sudden liability, since they will be responsible for the content people post, and they want to become a cog in a machine so that they can claim they have no control over the content and absolve themselves of the responsibility of moderating it
# melody which would make the blockchain approach much more appealing to them
# melody because not only does that allow for monetization they could take a piece of, but the immutability takes them out of the hosting and control game entirely
# melody which might save them uncomfortable conversations with congress
# jacky oh this is def a big factor, for sure! https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2019-12-11#t1576083936988000
# jacky at that point, if I'm holding content on my phone from China that the US doesn't bang with, I'd get clapped
# jacky s/clapped/arrested/g
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@gumbydotgov ↩️ @matthewstoller @jack here's another one that already exists: https://w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204813219413581826)
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@mevdschee ↩️ @bull500 @jack Do you mean ActivityPub? See: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204813691356696576)
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@jwveldhuis ↩️ Bijzondere is dat die standaard reeds bestaat: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ wat bevalt Twitter daar niet aan dat ze dat wiel opnieuw willen gaan uitvinden? (twitter.com/_/status/1204816518992814088)
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@ear7h_network ↩️ @MastodonProject
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
@MastodonProject
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
@MastodonProject
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
@MastodonProject
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
@MastodonProject
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
@MastodonProject
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204818876065693696)
# nightpool[m] god this is so funny though
# nightpool[m] I mean I have to imagine there are just as many people shilling their favorite blockchain bullshit or whatever but it's a little gratifying to see so much community faith in AP
# melody i've seen people pushing steemit a bit and a few pushing secure scuttlebutt
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@ubifreak ↩️ @dj_walnut @_xerz_ @jack @bluesky @paraga @SocialWebWG @MastodonProject @WHATWG @mozilla @EFF @fsf @joindiaspora pleroma is so cool (twitter.com/_/status/1204819797101252609)
# melody my big frustration is that decentralization makes all of twitters worst social problems worse and none of the decentralized alternatives have solved them either
# nightpool[m] I haven't looked into steemit, but ssb's mobile story is really bad :(
# nightpool[m] matrix is a chat service, seems hard to adopt to a follower-based network
# melody if twitter can't fix its problems while being centralized they're in no position to solve them with harder constraints
# melody of course twitter doesn't want to fix its problems, it wants to absolve itself of the responsibility to do so
# nightpool[m] I don't think it's fair to say that decentralization makes all of twitter's problems harder, without exception. decentralization allows for the building of smaller communities that can more easily manage their own moderation needs, using whitelisting and greylisting
# nightpool[m] decentralization comes with its own set of challenges, but they're different challenges, not "harder" versions of the same challenges
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@skddc ↩️ @jack Come on, join the fediverse! https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204821889262215168)
# melody whitelisting & greylisting actually introduce a whole new set of problems, and could also in principle be done over top of a centralized infrastructure that also allows for actually dealing with the content at the source, any solution you can apply in a decentralized network can be applied more easily by a centralized one, and likely with additional guarantees
# melody distributed systems are fundamentally less capable of content control than centralized ones, full stop
# melody there are potential other benefits and some of those might outweigh the additional challenges
# melody but twitter's biggest social problems would be amplified by twitter federating
# nightpool[m] you're presupposing that content control is the solution, rather then a community-focused approach that addresses the root causes of radicalization.
# nightpool[m] distributed systems close some doors but open others.
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@aardrian https://twitter.com/jack/status/1204766085037248512
This already exists as an open standard (and no blockchain hype).
If @bluesky has not heard of this, then you need a new team:
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
If @bluesky *has* and is not contributing (especially @paraga), then *we* need you to get a new team. (twitter.com/_/status/1204831472181493760)
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@AngelesBroullon ↩️ @jack That open and decentralized standard already exists and it is called #ActivityPub https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204833480753987584)
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@janiszt I thought the standard is already there, called ActivityPub already used in @MastodonProject and @GNUsocial and @joindiaspora https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204834535097196545)
# melody i'm not presupposing anything, but this is a hard discussion to have on IRC, i dont really want to have to talk in quips to explain myself
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# slashscreen Are there any websites that have used Activitypub? Does mastodon use something different?
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# cjslep[m] My blog uses it for comments
# nightpool[m] slashscreen: what do you mean by websites? mastodon definitely uses ActivityPub
# slashscreen like twitter, mastodon, etc, or, like cjslep said
# slashscreen ah, cool! i was wondering how mastodon works
# slashscreen pardon my ignorance of these topics, I find it difficult to wrap my head around these concepts; however, I am excited to learn more
# cjd lol @ bluesky "Amazing, I can't believe nobody has thought of this before!"
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@dustyweb ↩️ @csolisr @briecode @evanpro @jack @tinysubversions All three listed at the top of the standard, in fact! https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204858844767248385)
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@animeirl ↩️ He's doing literally the exact the opposite. He's inventing his own proprietary protocol instead of contributing to a popular standard that already exists https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204859255586615296)
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# jacky that supposes that there's a space to collab
# jacky has anyone considered reaching out to bluesky?
# jacky I kinda can't because I don't represent any group on an official capacity
# melody there is no bluesky yet, there's just the twitter CTO who will eventually be picking a person who will put together the rest of the team
# jacky right
# jacky I should have rephrased that lol
# jacky I meant more like has anyone considered throwing in their hat
# jacky be it as a consultant or what not
# jacky granted, it's at the whim of them
# melody if i was working anywhere but where I am now, i think i would consider applying to put together that team or be on it, but my current company is already enabling me to do similar work without twitter's baggage (but, additionally, without twitter's funding and resources) so there's a lot less incentive for me
# melody i also don't think i'd ever *get* that position and i think anyone who does is likely to be disappointed, as i suspect a lot of interference to make things attractive to VC that would undermine the entire project in the end
# jacky hm fyeah
# jacky *yeah
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@AICurrencies ↩️ ActivityPub https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ and similar competition is probably going to start chewing into Twitter as things 'decentralize.
Maybe they are just looking for something similar that is less threatening to their corporate interests. (twitter.com/_/status/1204872135891673094)
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@dsmithhayes ↩️ @jack Here, look, there's already W3C documentation for this: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204881407698452480)
# nightpool[m] jacky: I was planning on reaching out once things calmed down
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@su_js1 ↩️ Nah, sounds like the next version of ActivityPub will integrate Twitter standards... https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204900112226570247)
# @su_js1 ↩️ with this pronouncement, sounds like the next version of ActivitPub will just integrate Twitter standards https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1204900418570084352)