#wordpress 2018-07-29

2018-07-29 UTC
donblanco joined the channel
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donblanco
so I'm logged in to Aperture, add a few sources under Home, log in to both alltogethernow.io and the Indigenou app - neither can see any content from any feed
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donblanco
also tried Monocle - get 'access token does not have the necessary scope' error
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
The changes need to go to stable
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dougbeal
Yeah, how does that work? Is it in the wiki somewhere?
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GWG
I can probably push a release
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GWG
I think I have permission
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GWG
I usually let pfefferle
drkokandy, jeremycherfas and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
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[jgmac1106]
Not sure I am going to be able to use POSSE in my class if every single person will need to apply for a Twitter Dev account and then wait days for no response on the application
donblanco and donblanco1 joined the channel
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donblanco1
!tell @dougbeal Yes, still getting that scope weirdness
raretrack joined the channel
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GWG
The development version has the fix. Will try to release it.
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Loqi
donblanco: dougbeal left you a message 8 hours, 41 minutes ago: That might be the scope bug: https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieauth/blob/1633a31ceebf458afd4ea4b74973b8f2cf1662e5/includes/class-indieauth-authorization-endpoint.php#L86 Do you get something like Scope1%20Scope2?
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[Khurt_Williams]
Hi. I don’t visit very often (the conversations are too late night for me). I’m having issues with Brid.gy posting content to Twitter, Flickr, etc. but without a link back to the originating content.
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[Khurt_Williams]
So … the question is … does the community feel that the IndieWeb WordPress plugin are ready for general use or … is this still much of a developer geek playground?
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GWG
I don't think so, but it isn't as easy as it should be
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GWG
What are your pain points?
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jgmac1106_
[khurt_Williams] what theme are you using, each syndicates to Twitter slightly different also could be different for each post kind
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jgmac1106_
[kurt_williams] I am trying with a bunch of students starting today. I will find out. The Twitter API changes making things more difficult not easier
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[Khurt_Williams]
I am using the same theme as everyone else who is trying to get consistent results with IndieWeb plugins: IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen.
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[Khurt_Williams]
I don’t want to be negative but the results since I started using the IndieWeb plugins months ago have been inconsistent when it comes to POSSE.
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jgmac1106_
okay me too, can you post a link to the tweet
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jgmac1106_
most peole don’t syndicate with Bridgy, they use something like SNAP (I was until I got suspended)
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[Khurt_Williams]
At first it was “your theme support for microformats is not good”, so I installed the Microformats2 plugin but … that had inconsistent results so I switched to the very unattractive “IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen” theme but then still have issues. I am ready to give up.
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@khurtwilliams
Photos from the QuickChek Festival of Ballooning pre-festival Media Launch (Island In The Net) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjNJOONUYAEZ9Te.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/1023242050844733443)
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jgmac1106_
you can also check what happens on https://brid.gy by logging on, the other thing to remember (and I forget) is that you have to manually update 2016….so as long at it doesn’t autoupdate it really is meant for general public, general public doesn’t update themes with Git
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jgmac1106_
you have this to show in the bridgy menu? Link Back to Post Show
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[Khurt_Williams]
Brid.gy reports 'No log found!”
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[Khurt_Williams]
I have no clue what that means or where to go from there, hence my sense of frustration.
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jgmac1106_
[khurt_williams] in terms of the look check out my site https://jgregorymcverry.com I added a page builder to get the design options I wanted but have IndieWeb too…yeah the microformats2 plugin with other themese will not work
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Loqi
Greg McVerry
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GWG
I still have plans for a Bridgy UI replacement
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jgmac1106_
and can you post the link to the post you syndicated?
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[Khurt_Williams]
Here’s another one. I take a look at this and go “what?!!!!”
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Loqi
[Khürt Williams] QuickChek Festival of Ballooning pre-festival Media Launch
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jgmac1106_
and a lot of times it isn’t even bridg.gy or the brid.gy plugin, my last probelm was caused by a security check used by my shared host
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GWG
Khurt, I did fix a few of the things you reported, I believe
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[Khurt_Williams]
So … when I encounter these problems, where to start and how to interpret the logs and message to understand what the problem might be and what path to take for resolution?
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jgmac1106_
you came here, first step, but you are horribly matched with west coast time…so it harder,
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]_ I’m on a Digital Ocean VPS. I have full control.
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jgmac1106_
yeah I was just pointing out often the trouble comes from random places
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[Khurt_Williams]
Yep. I now, [chrisaldrich] suggested some time ago that I jump in here for help but … I have not been able to connect in real time.
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jgmac1106_
you do have show links checked in Bridgy menu correct?
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jgmac1106_
but I would, though Twitter will now make you fill out a developer application, and wait, and wait and wait, is use SNAP for everything except replying to tweets and then use brid.gy, its best for nesting Twitter threads
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jgmac1106_
[gwg] mantains the bidgy plugin, and I can poke around and usually be of little help
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GWG
For anything that is a bug or enhancement, open an issue. For help, come here
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[Khurt_Williams]
I am using Version: 1.0.0.1532786115 of the IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen. I think that is the latest.
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jgmac1106_
but you can leave messages as well using !tell
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GWG
I use the theme on my own site. So I am motivated to fix issues
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[Khurt_Williams]
@GWG I usually open an issue when I am stuck trying to find a fix.
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jgmac1106_
for brid.gy to syndicate but not publish a log is very strange
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GWG
If it is Bridgy itself as opposed to the plugin snarfed is really responsive
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GWG
Khurt, you were the one who wanted the untappd icon. I can't remember what else
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jgmac1106_
In your log I read this: 2018-07-29 11:56:33.579370 I Could not find a tweet to reply to. Did you put anything in the response properties box?
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GWG
I am nearly done with my current big project and will be making the rounds on my projects
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jgmac1106_
I am excited for media endpoints so teacup can be an IndieWeb untappd
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jgmac1106_
[gwg] do you have a link to [chrisaldrich] youtube channel? I didn’t book mark the videos he made
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[Khurt_Williams]
@GWG I’m frustrated enough to give up the whole experiment. I’m considering going back to my “attractive but fully functional” theme and removing whatever doesn’t work re: IndieWeb plugins.
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[Khurt_Williams]
more examples of not have a back link to the originating post.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Brid.gy claimed it had already published this to Twitter one on first publish. Nothing appeared on Twitter.; https://islandinthenet.com/out-to-dinner/. I manually published this one after I got the same “already published” Brid.gy error: https://islandinthenet.com/play/
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@khurtwilliams
I am drinking a Reusable Bags by Troon Brewing. More reusable bags means less plastic in the streams and waterways which means less pollution which means I get to live longer and drink more beer. Right? (Island In The Net) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dhh7B5KU8AAP2u8.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/1015696990334799873)
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]_ sometime the tweets don’t appear on twitter. This is so frustrating to trouble shoot.
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GWG
I always feel sad when people choose to do that. If I can do something to help, I will
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jgmac1106_
can you try checking this: Send Shortlinks instead of Full URL? to see if that does anything.
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GWG
But POSSE frustrates me no matter what the means
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sknebel
I think what's happening is that your microformats claim the URL to your posts is "Island In The Net"
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jgmac1106_
Also what post kind are you selecting? Try a note and a photo with full url and url shortner selected, let’s see if they are different
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jgmac1106_
then [sknebel] swoops in to save the day
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[Khurt_Williams]
@GWG I am considering ether 1) dumb POSSE 2) do it using JetPack only.
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sknebel
so a) all posts have the same "URL", so bridgy thinks you already posted them and b) that's why "Island In The Net" gets added to the end instead of the rul
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jgmac1106_
ooohhhh did you not turn off the microformats plugin?
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GWG
Jetpack is fine
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sknebel
looking at the page source, there's "<div class="menu-social-profiles-container"><ul id="menu-social-profiles" class="social-links-menu"><li id="menu-item-35005" class="u-url menu-item menu-item-type-custom menu-item-object-custom menu-item-35005"><a title="RSS " rel="me" href="https://islandinthenet.com/feed"><span class="screen-reader-text">Island In The Net</span></a></li>"
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sknebel
which causes that, with the "u-url" on the <li> tag making no sense
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jgmac1106_
[khurt_willaims] that is what most people do, jetpack or SNAP, and the Twitter API plugins mean POSSE days limited IMO
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]_ IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen doesn’t need Microformat2 plugin so yes, disabled — not even installed.
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jgmac1106_
and I am thinking [sknebel] that maybe when switching to an mf2 theme the mf2 plugin was not deactived….darn…that ain’t it then
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[Khurt_Williams]
So … let’s start over. If I were going to IndieWeb wiki to setup a WordPress blog and followed the information there, what would I have installed?
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[Khurt_Williams]
SNAP was also inconsistent for a long while. Just re-installed it yesterday.
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]_ so I did all of that …
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jgmac1106_
yeah are you using some social media plug in for these: social-links-menu
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[Khurt_Williams]
My photography posts are always “Articles”.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Not sure what the point of the “Photo” post kind is.
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jgmac1106_
that adds the correct microformats to a photo, but syndicating photos always requires me to use a the featured image post
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]_ social links menu is part of JetPack.
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[Khurt_Williams]
@sknebel translation?
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sknebel
[Khurt_Williams]: of what?
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jgmac1106_
okay can you turn off jetpack and try again? I think what [sknebel] is saying is bridgy see this <a title="RSS " rel="me" href="https://islandinthenet.com/feed"> and thinks that is url to post
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sknebel
something is putting an "u-url" class in that social-links-menu where there really shouldn't be one
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[Khurt_Williams]
@sknebel what does “looking at the page source, there’s “<div class=“menu-social-profiles-container"><ul id="menu-social-profiles" class="social-links-menu"><li id="menu-item-35005" class="u-url menu-item menu-item-type-custom menu-item-object-custom menu-item-35005"><a title="RSS " rel="me" href="https://islandinthenet.com/feed"><span class="screen-reader-text">Island In The Net</span></a></li>"
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sknebel
something is putting an "u-url" class in that social-links-menu where there really shouldn't be one
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[Khurt_Williams]
Sigh!
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[Khurt_Williams]
So far it seems we have determined that something is wrong. But what that thing may be is elusive.
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jgmac1106_
I am not running jetpack, have exact set up as you and it is working, try deactivating, but also know syndication is different for each post kind in terms of how titles, excerpts, and featured images
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jgmac1106_
so deactivate jetpack, try both full and shortened urls, article post kind and photo post kind, reactivate, repeat
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[Khurt_Williams]
I should not that before support for Facebook was removed, my Facebook syndications also were posted without links.
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[Khurt_Williams]
I need JetPack.
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Loqi
it is probable
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[Khurt_Williams]
So .. removing to see if that is the problem doesn’t solve the issue. I’ll just have a less functional website.
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jgmac1106_
then syndicate with jetpack but what ever is injecting <a title="RSS " rel="me" href="https://islandinthenet.com/feed"> is causing your problem
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dougbeal
Khurt_Williams: Do you have Indieweb->Bridgy->Link back to Post turned on?
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[Khurt_Williams]
Yes.
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jgmac1106_
if you could maybe configure it to not share rss feed maybe that works
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[Khurt_Williams]
[dougbeal] I’ve had this setup for almost a year.
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jgmac1106_
must say been enjoying living life sans Jetpack, I don’t need automatic running a “shadow” version of my site
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dougbeal
Khurt_Williams: In the play post, Bridgy is looking for a tweet to retweet, because there is a syndication link to micro.blog
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dougbeal
Khurt_Williams: looking more closly at the log, its no the syndication link, its being a reply to the tuesday photo challenge
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[Khurt_Williams]
Ok. Disabled ALL plugins except IndieWeb plugins. The website looks like sh*t but …
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[Khurt_Williams]
That post was will now be syndicated to Twitter.
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@khurtwilliams
I am drinking a Two Phones by Other Half Brewing Co.. (Island In The Net) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjR1p9gUcAMplbP.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/1023572380889874432)
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[Khurt_Williams]
No link. Post kind is article.
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[Khurt_Williams]
I am using IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen theme.
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sknebel
menu is still there, same markup
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[Khurt_Williams]
The menu is part of the theme.
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sknebel
I thought you said its from jetpack?
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[Khurt_Williams]
Nope.
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dougbeal
Khurt_Williams, ah, the problem is it thinks url is "url": "Island In The Net",
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[Khurt_Williams]
Was mistaken.
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sknebel
dougbeal: yes, that's what we trying to debug right now
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[Khurt_Williams]
Not sure where that is coming from.
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sknebel
GWG do any of the plugins integrate with the social links menu?
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jgmac1106_
no, and I am wondering if there is a jetpack setting where [Khurt_Williams] can turn off “share rss”
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dougbeal
At this point I would go to wp install and run grep -r "social-links-menu" *
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[Khurt_Williams]
[dougbeal]
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[Khurt_Williams]
indieweb-twenty-sixteen/footer.php: 'menu_class' => 'social-links-menu',
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[Khurt_Williams]
indieweb-twenty-sixteen/header.php: 'menu_class' => 'social-links-menu',
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[Khurt_Williams]
indieweb-twenty-sixteen/style.css:.social-links-menu:before,
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[Khurt_Williams]
indieweb-twenty-sixteen/style.css:.social-links-menu:after,
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[Khurt_Williams]
indieweb-twenty-sixteen/style.css:.social-links-menu:after,
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[Khurt_Williams]
It’s part of the theme.
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jgmac1106_
[Khurt Williams] do your social links drive a ton of traffic? You could just change jetpack share settings to display only on: Front Page, Archive Pages, and Search Results
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jgmac1106_
I bet you they are link most social share buttons and aren’t really used on individual posts
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[Khurt_Williams]
Social inks are the ONLY thing that drive traffic. That’s the whole point of POSSE, I think.
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[Khurt_Williams]
But … that’s not the only reason I have JetPack. I have JetPack for a portfolio of images.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Which … right now is a broken menu item because I turned off JetPack.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Perhaps I should edit the content on the Wiki with updates on what works and won’t work, etc.
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jgmac1106_
…yes I am saying on your site, you could just put them on the main, point of posse is owning your content, sharing on silos secondary
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jgmac1106_
I just activated Jetpack and Bridgy went haywire
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[Khurt_Williams]
If the end user has to use these plugins we need to post a list of “caveats”.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Do this, but it breaks that sort of thing.
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[Khurt_Williams]
So my solution may be to simply stop using Brid.gy
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[Khurt_Williams]
FYI. That last syndicated post never made to to Brid.gy.
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jgmac1106_
yep, trying now and after activating Jetpack, then deactivating jetpack, I need to reauthorize brid.gy
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[Khurt_Williams]
Publishing this post, https://islandinthenet.com/other-half-brewing-co-s-two-phones-2/, manually via the Brid.gy front end.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Got the message: “Sorry, you've already published that page, and Bridgy Publish doesn't yet support updating or deleting existing posts"
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[Khurt_Williams]
I don’t know what the problem is.
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jgmac1106_
[Khurt_Williams] yes this is what [skenbel] was saying
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jgmac1106_
Bridgy is picking up the rss feed to your blog as the u-url to your post
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[Khurt_Williams]
Giving up! 🤷‍♂️
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jgmac1106_
what we need to figure out is how to get that off…..funny thing is jetpack didn’t have an rss option
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jgmac1106_
well thanks for playing, good luck
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[Khurt_Williams]
JetPack an ALL other non-IndieWeb plugins are disabled. That recent post was with just IndieWeb plugins.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Removing RSS seems drastic.
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jgmac1106_
not remove it, just figure out what is causing the injection in the markup
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[Khurt_Williams]
How?
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jgmac1106_
not sure, after you disabled jetpack did you go to brid.gy, sign out and then sign back in? I had to do that
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[Khurt_Williams]
Ok. Will try. But … really want to get back to actually publishing content versus fixing the publishing platform.
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jgmac1106_
then just syndicate with jetpack…nobody syndicates with bridgy because….see above
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[Khurt_Williams]
The whole stack is giant experiment. Might be worth it for some. IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen seems to be the only microformats2 WordPress theme but … it’s not attractive for a photo heavy blog. I’ll have to reconsider my experiment with all of this.
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jgmac1106_
again look at my photo page with 2016 http://jgregorymcverry.com/photos/
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[Khurt_Williams]
6 laps left in the Hungarian F1 GP race so that means I have been troubleshooting this for almost 2 hours.
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jgmac1106_
if you want turnkey use micro.blog or withknown on a subdomain, if you want WordPress get ready for DIY troubleshooting…its WordPress
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jgmac1106_
and withknown requires knowledge of ftp and github
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]_ nice but … I prefer to look like this: https://islandinthenet.com
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]_ I’ve never had issues with WordPress until IndieWeb plugins.
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jgmac1106_
!tell [pfefferle] finished all the SemPress videos, note how link titles display. Gonna file issues later but gwg came up with a fix for title displaus
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[chrisaldrich]
[Khurt_Williams] If it's the social links menu which is adding an extraneous `u-url` then try going to https://islandinthenet.com/wp-admin/nav-menus.php
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jgmac1106_
each plugin is mantained by 1 maybe 2 people working as volunteers on open source projects
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[chrisaldrich]
then click on the item for your RSS feed and check what's in the metadata fields for it.
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[chrisaldrich]
you may need to go to `Screen Options` in the upper right to make sure it's showing all the available fields.
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]_ not putting anyone down. These developers are doing good work. It’s just not ready for a “just works” user.
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[chrisaldrich]
I would guess that the field for `CSS Classes (optional)` has u-url in it somehow and removing that may fix your problem
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] there is nothing in the CSS classes for any of these. But .. I’ll remove the menu. Sigh! Yet another thing I can’t have on the website.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Everyone thanks for your help. I have decided that I just won’t use Brid.gy.
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[chrisaldrich]
temporarily removing the menu to see if it fixes your problem is a first step, then we should see how to fix it
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sknebel
wordpress_codex++ for making reading wordpress code surprisingly viable
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Loqi
wordpress_codex has 1 karma
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sknebel
wordpress-- for me reading wordpress code *again*
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Loqi
wordpress has -1 karma in this channel (-3 overall)
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[chrisaldrich]
Part of the problem is that POSSE via brid.gy has WAY too many (hidden to the user) if/then steps between the front end and the back end to make it a super viable for WordPress given the massive variety of themes and their support of microformats.
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Loqi
[Ben Werdmüller] I’m done with syndication. Let’s help people be themselves on the web.
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[Khurt_Williams]
I think I’ll just have to give up on that and watch the web traffic fall off.
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[jgmac1106]
[chrisaldrich] I need link to your YouTube channel
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[Khurt_Williams]
Have anyone considered how discovery works if one never uses social silos?
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[chrisaldrich]
I haven't tried Bridgy publish in ages. Generally I use SNAP, but even then 80% of the time I syndicate to twitter manually so I can control exactly how it looks using OGP on my back end.
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aaronpk
I'm not sure I agree with ben's conclusion there... he stopped syndicating to twitter and now posts directly to twitter. Not sure how that is a particularly interesting or unique idea.
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[jgmac1106]
Discovered today Jetpack breaks Bridgy. I am only using Bridgy bc my SNAP suspended
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[jgmac1106]
Ben also spends a lot of time on Twitter now.. He didn't stop POSSE, he stopped publishing on his own domain
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[chrisaldrich]
I was surprised at it a bit too because Known's syndication to Twitter is pretty flawless, though it does only use one of the many options for displaying Twitter cards.
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[jgmac1106]
Ahh the joys I get from not looking or caring about analytics or traffic
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sknebel
[jgmac1106]: do you have a indieweb2016 test site? can you check if the same happens for you if you add that menu?
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[chrisaldrich]
I do recall there was a lot of mishegas within the Twitter API and Facebook API business about the time he posted that though... particularly the Facebook API shutting down pieces.
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[jgmac1106]
Good content and community, only real SEO out there
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donblanco
I like Ben's take, especially this "if you publish on your own site, your words are much more likely to stand the test of time and still be online years later." My domain just hit 20 years yesterday
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aaronpk
Yes of course, yet he then goes and writes only on Twitter
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donblanco
But manually posting vs syndicating seems to be a technology difference, not philosophical
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[jgmac1106]
@sknebel I did as soon as I activated Jetpack
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[jgmac1106]
Need to hang with my kids but will try to recreate exact error tonight
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[chrisaldrich]
sometimes the ephemerality of Twitter can push people to not bother posting on their own site. some of it depends on how much it hurts to do otherwise.
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[jgmac1106]
Bridgy reply to tweet most flawless option to keep Twitter thread and webmention comment thread alive
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sknebel
when you have the menu set up somewhere send the link, then I can take a look at the markup
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[jgmac1106]
[Khurt_Williams] but [chrisaldrich] POSSE from Known is awesome, part of the reason I ran indieweb on subdomain last three years...WordPress
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donblanco
webmention/threads is blog-to-blog and independent of social silos and I'm starting to think it's best if kept separate. Friends/family on FB are mostly non-technical
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donblanco
I'm mostly off of Twitter
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[jgmac1106]
FB POSSE days are over
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donblanco
Mastodon is for plain old chat and seeing interesting things, but no IndieWeb focus at all
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[jgmac1106]
Twitter soon to be with everyone needing registered developer accounts
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donblanco
@jgmac1106 and PESO is questionable to me as well - I just don't have any followers anywhere who would give a shit about most of what I write about. Just other like-minded people who blog
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[jgmac1106]
[snarfed] has some Fediverse set ups, [chrisaldrich] too
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aaronpk
donblanco: you might be surprised once you start syndicating content to other platforms
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aaronpk
With my posts getting sent to micro.blog and mastodon followers, I'm always surprised at the responses I get to some of my posts
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106]didn’t realize that. Sad. I’ve had my domain for over 13 years. I think it’s hypocritical to complain about social silos while using them for syndication but understand why we use them. I had actually stopped syndicating to Facebook and Twitter until I noticed a drop in traffic. So … social media works as intended.
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donblanco
@aaronpk so you are both apk>micro.blog and apk>mastodon?
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[jgmac1106]
I need to get Mastodon set up, didn't like auto toot, I syndicate to microblog, will sign up for community tonight
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aaronpk
My micro.blog username is "aaronpk", and my website is its own mastodon identity, you can follow "aaronpk@aaronparecki.com" or check out https://aaronparecki.com/aaronpk
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Loqi
Aaron Parecki
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[Khurt_Williams]
@donblanco the majority of my traffic was from Facebook. Friend and family liking/commenting on my images.
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aaronpk
I have no interest in running mastodon itself or even having a separate mastodon identity so I made my site work with mastodon instead
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[jgmac1106]
I have this idea that I can have my students syndicate to micro.blog from WordPress but I get a class feed and ability to leave webmentions from micro.blog
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[jgmac1106]
Yeah [aaronpk] your set up awesome, lot of my community going there
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donblanco
@aaronpk I already follow you from my octodon.social account
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aaronpk
Sweet, hope that has been working well
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[Khurt_Williams]
[aaronpk] the only time i get traffic from micro.blog is when I post there first and then syndicated back to my website. POSSE to micro.blog does’t generate traffic back to my site.
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aaronpk
I don't think I understand [Khurt_Williams]
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donblanco
@Khurt_Williams images makes sense - I have a travel blog w/ FB group connected, but I'm shifting all pics to Flickr now - will share from the blog and Flickr directly to FB group I guess? Traffic is not something I track
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aaronpk
Do you not have micro.blog set up to pull posts from your blog?
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[jgmac1106]
@donblanco you have to see the Flickr favs plugin [johnjohnston] built for me
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donblanco
@aaronpk I'm confused about your site connection to Mastodon w/out running a Masto instance. What do you mean?
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aaronpk
There's no need to treat micro.blog as a thing you POSSE to, since it can pull your posts from your blog and they all show up as native micro.blog posts
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[Khurt_Williams]
[aaronpk] yes, But it pulls titles and then the link. Images never make it over to micro.glog
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donblanco
@jgmac1106 I'm intrigued...
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aaronpk
ahh yeah, if you post has a title micro.blog includes a link instead. You could have micro.blog pull your "microblog" posts instead, (posts without a title) and they'd look native
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donblanco
likes micro.glog lol
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aaronpk
donblanco: mastodon is built using a spec, so I implemented that spec myself
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aaronpk
There are a few other projects that work with mastodon too, but none as big as it
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[chrisaldrich]
The recurring theme here this morning is that the small customizations required to syndicate content to multiple silos can be an issue so that what you have/want on your site gets properly mirrored to the silo(s) you're targeting.
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jgmac1106_
I used to display all my faves here http://jgregorymcverry.com/flickr-images/ using flickr plugin…but it is flash
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[Khurt_Williams]
[aaronpk] not sure I understand that. Posting to micro.blog first lead to “ugly” post on WordPress.
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jgmac1106_
[chrisaldrich] I am going to testpack Jetpack with all three themes, knowing that it could inject markup that trips up bridgy means it could affect many things
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aaronpk
I don't think I understand the link between posting first on micro.blog and getting those posts back to wordpress
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[chrisaldrich]
Khurt, you might find some WordPress specific documentation/help for syndicating to micro.blog via RSS here: https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20180523034719
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[Khurt_Williams]
I think it’s sad that most people doing IndieWeb on WordPress are using exactly the same IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen posts.
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Loqi
[Eli Mellen] Oat note, posted May 23, 2018
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jgmac1106_
so [donblanco] John Johnston built that using my creative commons overlay thing I built awhile back..or just the idea…wouldn’t touch my code I am sure
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[chrisaldrich]
Khurt, I actually think 2016 themes are a minority. More people I've seen are using SemPress (or one of it's child themes) or they're using Independent Publisher.
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aaronpk
I'm not a huge fan of content negotiation because it can't work with static sites, but it sure seems like that would solve these wordpress theme issues https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-uf2/issues/38
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Loqi
[pfefferle] #38 Temporary change theme for Webmention request
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] I followed Phoneboy’s setup but … posts from micro.blog were ugly. Really ugly.
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donblanco
@aaronpk so you implemented activitypub on your site?
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] the post from micro.blog came across as “small image plus text”.
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aaronpk
donblanco: as little of it as I could to get it working yes
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donblanco
@jgmac1106 thanks! Unfortunately, I'm very gunshy about anything using shortcodes....
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[chrisaldrich]
[Khurt_Williams] micro.blog mostly doesn't like posts which "shouldn't" have a title having them. There are various hacks from simply leaving titles off of WP posts to having them stripped by customizing one's RSS feed.
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[chrisaldrich]
I've got to run a quick errand... back in a bit folks.
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donblanco
@aaronpk I just installed the WP OStatus plugin and its dependencies, but I'll be damned if I know what I'm supposed to do with it now.
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[Khurt_Williams]
@donblanco same.
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jeremych-
!tell chrisaldrich Are there that many options for Twitter cards if you are not paying for adverts? I thought just Summary and Summary with large image.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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donblanco
@Khurt_Williams remember, Twitter was the original (mass-consumption) microblog. microblogging is assuming short content. In WordPress this would be post kinds like notes, not articles
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donblanco
@aaronpk I think I'll explore micro.blog's Mastodon connections
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aaronpk
I have no idea what the state of the ostatus plugin is regarding working with mastodon, I'd be surprised if it's up to the task tho. Ostatus is the original spec mastodon built on, but then they switched to activitypub
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[jgmac1106]
[jeremycherfas] confused by question. You can hard code a Twitter card into any WordPress header and most themes take featured image and make Twitter card
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] I think I’m going to have to read some of those post twice. I think there is some assumptions built into the writing. Micro.blog post: http://khurt.micro.blog/2018/07/29/this-is-a.html (via web).
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jeremycherfas] I don’t expect the whole post to show up but a twitter card or facebook style preview. Some excerpt text, the post featured image, and a link to the originating post.
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Loqi
This is a test. This should appear on Island in the Net. Other post.
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GWG
By the way, I wrote new authorization error message handling for Micropub last night
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jeremych-
My point, [jgmac1106] was that chrisaldrich was talking about "many options for displaying Twitter cards" https://chat.indieweb.org/wordpress/2018-07-29/1532876642608900
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Loqi
[[chrisaldrich]] I was surprised at it a bit too because Known's syndication to Twitter is pretty flawless, though it does only use one of the many options for displaying Twitter cards.
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jeremych-
I am aware of only two, for non-advertisers.
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jeremych-
Happy to learn about others.
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jeremych-
The two I know of work flawlessly as manual copy and paste of link from my WP site to Twitter, although I always check them first in Twitter Card Validator.
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[jgmac1106]
I usually manually add cards to the header of my website, on per post level, my featured images just become the img in my Twitter card
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[jgmac1106]
I do not use it but my page builder has a ton of Twitter card options
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donblanco
@aaronpk yeah, but it promised to make my site into a federated instance, at least partially compatible with the fediverse. If it did, how would I know? Tried using my site to remote follow someone and it failed
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[jgmac1106]
I do need to find out how many "mf2" rules I break using featured images
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[jgmac1106]
But rather have it look the way I want first
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jeremych-
Interesting. I use All in One SEO to build my cards, and it seems to offer only Summary and Summary Large Image. Mind you, I've never wanted anything else.
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aaronpk
donblanco: testing was a terrible experience, Mastodon caches stuff like crazy so you can't really change something and then go test if it worked. At the very least I would expect that someone on Mastodon could follow your site once you install that.
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sknebel
jeremych-: might be options of putting different content in those two types?
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] I’m reading to give up on mf2 compatibility and go back to use a theme that presented my content (mostly photography) in it’s best light. Being limited to three mf2 themes is … well limiting.
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jeremych-
Sknebel Doubt it.
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jeremych-
I wonder, [jgmac1106] how good the HTML is created by various page builders? I have no experience, but it seems at the start that it could be creating something like Word's versions of HTML.
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[jgmac1106]
Make sense. Kurt but I get alot with page builders
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jeremych-
But I should give it a try. Which one do you reccomend?
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[jgmac1106]
[jeremycherfas] I don't syndicate or worry about IndieWeb on those pages
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[jgmac1106]
I should check
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jeremych-
That's funny.
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[jgmac1106]
I use Elementor
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jeremych-
There you were, telling me about all the Twitter card options it offers, and you don't use that.
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[jgmac1106]
But that is main point of Gutenberg
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[jgmac1106]
Yeah but they are there if I want it
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[jgmac1106]
Who is jeremych-
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donblanco
@aaronpk how do you follow a site, vs a user, from Mastodon? That part confuses me
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[jgmac1106]
Oops, Jeremy will find you later I have developer license you can test
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jeremych-
Ah, my weak spot. I am jeremycherfas, but I can't seem to remember how to persuade IRC to change my nick.
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donblanco
Page Builders are evil
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[jgmac1106]
There was a message from Loqi about needing a reset a few days back
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aaronpk
donblanco: there is only the concept of a user in Mastodon, so your site ends up having a user account. That's why mine is "aaronpk@aaronparecki.com". You'll have to check what that plugin does to see what it uses for the username
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jeremych-
Tell me more, donblanco
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[jgmac1106]
... Yes @donblanco they are but it's only way to get a visual IndieWeb theme if you don't know how to build themes
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donblanco
themes != page builders
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[jgmac1106]
[jeremycherfas] they are derided for making lazy users think html zealots hating on Wysiwyg
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jeremych-
You can see that I already think that, based on what I think of Word.
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[jgmac1106]
But they, the rise of Weebly and Wix are reason for Gutenberg
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[jgmac1106]
People want drag and drop design UI
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donblanco
@aaronpk I would assume my wordpress user name? The plugin has ZERO helpful text in any setting page, or in any plugin dependency. But it promised to turn my site into a federated social network :(
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aaronpk
donblanco: I have no idea, sorry. I haven't used that plugin, and also it's ostatus rather than activitypub so I'm not sure how far you'll be able to get with that anyway
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[jgmac1106]
!tell chrisaldrich remember to repost your YouTube channel
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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donblanco
@jgmac1106 you mean it's the only way to do visual wysiwig page construction if you want to use an existing indieweb-ready theme?
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jeremych-
The reason I'm tempted is that I recently needed to build a page for a specific project, and I found building template.php files in my child theme more complex than I expected, for what I wanted to do.
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donblanco
@aaronpk yeah, I'm just floundering around for ideas. I think it's likely I'll uninstall all of this part soon. Always looking for a user-friendly solo fediverse instance, without the hand-coding part
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[jgmac1106]
No I mean the market, I do like full width pages vs 660 body
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aaronpk
I see that Pfefferle created a wordpress-activitypub github repo, tho there's no code in it yet. Maybe keep an eye on that
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donblanco
my main issue w/ visual page-building is that if you ever switch themes or want to use a *different* page builder you will be facing spaghetti code from hell to clean up or convert. Orphaned shortcode everywhere.
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[jgmac1106]
@donblanco I was just in the bot wiki slack group brainstorming indieweb to Fediverse bots
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[pfefferle]
donblanco [aaronpk] OStatus for WordPress is compatible to mastodon... you can follow each user from a mastodon site (@user@blog.tld) and posts are shared on mastodon and replies are copied back to the blog
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Loqi
[pfefferle]: jgmac1106_ left you a message 2 days, 4 hours ago: I see this issue https://github.com/pfefferle/SemPress/issues/48 about post-kinds. Should we not use the post-kind plugin with SemPress
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donblanco
@aaronpk yep, already looked into that one. thanks!
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[jgmac1106]
Nevermind that messags
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[jgmac1106]
Jeremy go watch the using Elementor with IndieWeb YouTube video I just made
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donblanco
@pfefferle That is kinda what I was hoping, but..................>HOW? That's where I'm getting stuck. What is the normal interaction interface?
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[jgmac1106]
Page I built https://SemPress jgregorymcverry.com ugly but I hit 7 minutes.. Way too long
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[jgmac1106]
Stupid auto space
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[jgmac1106]
SemPress.jgregorymcverry.com
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[miklb]
7 minutes too long for what?
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[jgmac1106]
Gonna use this so my students can build portfolio and homepages anyway they want
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donblanco
[pfefferle]: That is kinda what I was hoping, but..................>HOW? That's where I'm getting stuck. What is the normal interaction interface?
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jeremych-
I'm tempted to give it a play on my Independent Publisher child to see if I can get closer to what I had in mind.
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jeremych-
But not today. Thanks all for the inspiration.
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[jgmac1106]
[jeremycherfas] discovered numerous issues in Independent Publisher markup. I am no longer recommending it
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[jgmac1106]
Just SemPress and variants and 2016
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donblanco
wait - you can do IRC from slack client? hmmm...
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[miklb]
waves from Slack
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jeremych-
I have had no problems that I am aware of. So far.
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jeremych-
Anyway, I'm off for a walk.
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[jgmac1106]
Slack on mobile cuz VZW sucks
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[jgmac1106]
Enjoy [jeremycherfas] gonna file issues after done writing tutorials but after looking at post with @sknebel to see how they syndicate to Twitter found a bunch of incorrect markup on different post kinds
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[pfefferle]
Donblanco there is no interface on your blog, because you can only follow your blog from a mastodon site Not the other way around
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donblanco
[miklb]: waves back
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donblanco
[pfefferle]: ah, ok - so if I'm on my Masto account, logged in, how do I find/follow a blog, like my own blog for example? I've followed dozens of people, never a blog that I know of
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[chrisaldrich]
jeremych- There are also less used twitter cards for video and apps as well as ads I think. Facebook had even more variety in terms of options.
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Loqi
[chrisaldrich]: jeremych- left you a message 46 minutes ago: Are there that many options for Twitter cards if you are not paying for adverts? I thought just Summary and Summary with large image.
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Loqi
[chrisaldrich]: [jgmac1106] left you a message 19 minutes ago: remember to repost your YouTube channel
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[chrisaldrich]
[jgmac1106] Have you seen this for getting the right mf2 on your Featured Photos in WordPress? https://miklb.com/blog/2017/04/12/microformats2-wordpress-and-featured-images-classes/
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[pfefferle]
donblanco go to the people search and search for @username@yourblog.domain
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[jgmac1106]
No, but thank you, have to use feature image to get post to show on Twitter and to display on cards on my site
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[jgmac1106]
[chrisaldrich] do you have an example of what a long form article with image syndicates to micro.blog...i built a feed that excludes articles
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[pfefferle]
Donblanco username is your login name
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[jgmac1106]
My kids picked get Mario Tennis as their activity so I ended up with chat time at Gamestop
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[jgmac1106]
Gonna see if I can add that to my 2016 theme
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] I have been unable to get ANY long form articles with image to post more than the title and link.
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[jgmac1106]
That is probably a feature not bug, [manton] keeping it deliberately short form
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[jgmac1106]
Though could suggest it publishes title as link plus except up to 280 characters
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[chrisaldrich]
donblanco: There's also snarfed's effort for Mastodon called Bridgy Fed, but it's not feature complete. https://indieweb.org/Bridgy_Fed
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] I would prefer a twitter card style post.
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donblanco
@pfefferle yeah I tried that already - no results - try it for me? @donblanco@glenn.thedixons.net
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[Khurt_Williams]
From my perspective, right now, with all of this (micro.blog, syndication from WordPress to Twitter et al etc.) there are too many options with too many caveats and when something doesn’t work right, it requires so much work to troubleshoot or fix that I wonder if my blog is serving me or I am serving the blog.
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[pfefferle]
Is donblanco the name you use to login?
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donblanco
[pfefferle]: yes
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[jgmac1106]
Kurt there are also like three threads going on WP to Twitter, WP to feviverse, WP to microblog, makes sense they all behave different but must be hard to follow
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donblanco
[pfefferle]: it is the 'you can't change this' username in WordPress Admin
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[chrisaldrich]
[jgmac1106] If you syndicate a long from article to micro.blog, it just displays the title of the article and a link back to the site.
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[jgmac1106]
Need to figure out my rss feed for classes, not sure I want to use feedburner or something in WordPress... I hate trying to manage feeds inside WP
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[Khurt_Williams]
What is this supposed to do?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "this supposed to do" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "this supposed to do is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106]
Currently I put all the feeds into inoreader and then add a bunch of rss bots in Slack, but thinking I could set up a microblog account... Need to play
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[jgmac1106]
[Khurt_Williams] @gwg has the photo post kind to work whether you add url to response property box or in body of image
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[jgmac1106]
Using media uploader if you want image to syndicate just set it as featured image
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[Khurt_Williams]
@gwg [jgmac1106] it just seems to make blank posts https://islandinthenet.com/41329-2/
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Loqi
[Khürt Williams] Holding the Balloon
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[jgmac1106]
Where did you put image?
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[Khurt_Williams]
So … what’s the point of that post kind if I still need to set a featured image? Why link back to my own image? Confused by this.
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[jgmac1106]
You see how Loqi didn't crawl the post.... That is because of the rss link
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[jgmac1106]
Proper markup.... Which is improper of you use featured image to get photo to display
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[jgmac1106]
But that is what I do.. But still an image should display in post. Did you upload in body or put url to img in response property box?
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] the only way the image displays is if I add it as a featured image. Which is why I asked “what’s the point of this post kind”.
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[jgmac1106]
But that should not happen
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] I had to add as featured image. Check again.
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[chrisaldrich]
[jgmac1106] Let's all take care not to mix up the difference between WordPress' Featured Image and the indieweb version of /featured
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] should not .. but … yet that’s the only way it works.
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[jgmac1106]
Adding to your body or response property should display the image.. Just won't syndicate image
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[Khurt_Williams]
Ok. So I create an image post. No post title. No feature image but I set the post kind to photo and fill in the fields. What should the public see?
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[jgmac1106]
A post with your image
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[jgmac1106]
Even if you just add the image using media uploader, you do not need to use response property box
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[jgmac1106]
If you see a duplicate image it's because I set featured image and I set body image
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[Khurt_Williams]
So … I’m confused. Does the photo post kind display and image or not?
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[jgmac1106]
Even though it's wrong I now do featured image and I add a title, photo post kind should be able to have title for Flickr users
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[chrisaldrich]
[Khurt_Williams] Yes you should put your phots into either the_body or set as a native WordPress Featured Image. It will give you a lot more control over how it displays on your site.
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[jgmac1106]
It does for me that is what I am saying and trying to figure out what you did so it does not
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] so what’s the point of the photo post kind? Does it actually do anything unless I add a feature image or image in body of pos.t
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[jgmac1106]
I only use featured images so I can build a photo portfolio and syndicate image to Twitter
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[chrisaldrich]
The Photo Kind is set up more for micropub clients that allow you to post photos and then some of the interface is actually hidden on the back end.
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] ok. Because creating a photo kind post in WordPress display nothing : https://islandinthenet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III_20180727_6816_blog.jpg
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[chrisaldrich]
[Khurt_Williams] You should post your experience and expectations to the Post Kinds github issue queue so that we can either fix the issue or provide better documentation about what the expectations should be.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Sorry, Wrong lin,
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[chrisaldrich]
I don't uses photos very much, or at least not the way you're posting them certainly.
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] yeah, but then I have to spend time monitoring github for a reply etc. and look how long it took for me to explain what I was seeing and then I have leave up all these test posts ..
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[Khurt_Williams]
I’ve got at least 10 test/junk post to clean up.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Perhaps I’ll stand up another Digital Ocean VPS and test from there. My website is starting to look like shit.
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[chrisaldrich]
I suspect that if you describe it well enough to recreate the idea, you shouldn't need to leave a test post up. (Or you could change the date to several years ago so they're not as prominent in your feed or on your site...)
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donblanco
[pfefferle]: are there any ostatus settings I need to set? I can't really find any...
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[jgmac1106]
[Khurt_Williams] just published this one http://jgregorymcverry.com/5260-2/
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Loqi
Skip to content INTERTEXTrEVOLUTION Menu About Me Posts Web Annotations Image Credits Quick Thoughts Blog P+T Binder Publications Consulting... http://jgregorymcverry.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/1532883207457.jpg
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[chrisaldrich]
When it comes to testing against mf2, then test posts are worthwhile to see what your particular theme does, but I suspect this isn't the case for the functionality/problem you're having with Photo Post Kinds.
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[jgmac1106]
You can see on that my markup kinda wrong. None of that stuff should have posted
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[jgmac1106]
But that was not as a featured image and @gwg has any micropub note with img concert to photo post kind
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[jgmac1106]
I will try native posting as well
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] does any of this work as expected based on the documentation for the plugins or do you heavily tweak things? Trying to understand if this is a problem of documentation.
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[Khurt_Williams]
e.g. from the Post Kinds plugin documentation "Photo – image or photo post – a post with an embedded image as its primary focus. This uses either the featured image or attached images depending on theme.”
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[Khurt_Williams]
What is meant by “This uses either the featured image or attached images depending on theme”? IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen doesn’t use it.
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "meant by “This uses either the featured image or attached images depending on theme”" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "meant by “This uses either the featured image or attached images depending on theme” is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106]
That didn't unfurl at all. Meaning things are different for a native photo post kind versus one I syndicate using Indigenous as a Micropub client
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[jgmac1106]
Is the lack of social shares affecting your traffic so much your CPM will take a hit? [Khurt_Williams]
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] I gave up. Moving on. I’ll think some more about how much value this is adding to my website. At the end of the day, if I am spending more time troubleshooting than publishing then … it’s not worth it. I just IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen and went back to my original theme from several months ago. Already removed Brid.gy. Will see what else “doesn’t just work” and remove it. https://islandinthenet.com/tarzia-drif
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] without social shares how would anyone know the website existed? That’s the thing about social silos that I think is missing from all of this. Without social media there is NO DISCOVERY.
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[chrisaldrich]
[Khurt_Williams] I think the response properties box for photos is just displaying more fields than it actually uses (which is the case for several of the kinds). I don't think that the URL field is meant to accept a photo and then have it display.
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[chrisaldrich]
You could always delve into the view template for photos and tweak it so that it did do that for you, but I suspect you'd have much more control over the display if you simply put the photo into the body of your post or make it a Featured Image if your theme allows that.
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[jgmac1106]
[chrisaldrich] until recently it was only way for proper display. In fact I think my problem might be being a version or two behind
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[chrisaldrich]
[jgmac1106] There's no discovery until the social silos no longer have the majority of the traffic you mean... I'm only syndicating out right now as a means of reaching friends and family who don't/won't/can't follow my site directly. Eventually it'll all flatten out and then one's site will be the only thing that matters.
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[jgmac1106]
Communities are curated, social share buttons are leaky data spying toola
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[chrisaldrich]
POSSE is only a bridge to get us to the point when the web works the way it should (aka without silos)
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[jgmac1106]
But I am weird, don't care about traffic
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] I’m not sure that will happen until these tools are as simple as posting a link to Facebook/Twitter etc.
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[chrisaldrich]
[Khurt_Williams] most of what Post Kinds is trying to do is add appropriate microformats to your posts and their contexts. This typically isn't as big an issue for photos, so you could simply not use Post Kinds for photos if you prefer.
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[jgmac1106]
[chrisaldrich] accepting a media upload in photo post kind rather than response property box is recent update... Love it
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] I post to Facebook because no one I know personally (as in we have physically met) uses RSS.
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[chrisaldrich]
[Khurt_Williams] yes, we need 10 different CMSs that make it as easy as facebook, twitter, et al. We're getting there. And we're moving faster and faster over time. It was a LOT more slapdash and quixotic 3 years ago.
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[jgmac1106]
We will just keep hacking at it will we get there
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[chrisaldrich]
finding bugs, problems, etc. and filing them helps to move things forward faster as well. I don't mind being a canary in a coal mine. In fact, I kind of like pushing the envelope and breaking what I can so that it's easier for others later on.
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[Khurt_Williams]
Since most of my post are photography I want to represent the images in the best light (no pun intended). And coming form the Caribbean, most of my family and friends are not nearby nor geeky enough to want a website. So .. yes, I NEED Facebook is I want to share.
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[chrisaldrich]
[Khurt_Williams] until you posted it earlier, I would have never thought of putting a photo URL into the Photo Post Kind response property box.
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] it was there and I could find no documentation to explain why that was so. So I tried it and it did nothing. It’s like a shiny red button.
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[chrisaldrich]
especially for someone who loves photography as much as you do.
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[chrisaldrich]
I've noticed recently that using OwnYourSwarm it's pushing photos to my site, but there's no indication within the Admin UI that the photo is going to appear in the post because Post Kinds is finding it hiding in my back end with special properties and only displaying it on the front end.
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[chrisaldrich]
If I go in and add it manually in the body or as a featured photo, then that overrides what Post Kinds is pulling and also shows me what to expect on the front end.
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[chrisaldrich]
the set up and documentation for Photos in Post Kinds could/should be more explicit about what is happening here because it's not quite working in the same ways as many of the other Kinds.
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[chrisaldrich]
The only other Post Kind that used to work kind of like that was the one for Audio, but it's since been fixed so that if you add an .mp3 url into that same box, the view will output/display an audio player.
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[chrisaldrich]
Perhaps GWG should do something similar for photos?
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[Khurt_Williams]
And with the photography specific theme, the portfolio looks good: https://islandinthenet.com/portfolio/. With IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen it looked horrible.
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[Khurt_Williams]
[chrisaldrich] I tried OwnYourSwarm but I did not like how it created [posts](https://islandinthenet.com/skillman-princeton-rocky-hill/) so I switched to Keyring Social Importer. I think it’s way [better](https://islandinthenet.com/checked-in-at-houlihans/).
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[chrisaldrich]
I've been tempted to try out Keyring...
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[chrisaldrich]
At the same time I prefer to strive towards a POSSE first stance and PESOS second.
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[jgmac1106]
Speaking of which @chrisaldrich need to make tutorial on how to update 2016 theme. 98% of people won't know how to update from Git. What process do you use?
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[jgmac1106]
I am thinking backup child theme, switch theme, delete 2016, reinstall 2016,
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[jgmac1106]
... Once I delete today's tests
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[jgmac1106]
Need to add an hcard to that page
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donblanco
so swarm has disabled my account for too many micropub endpoint errors - how can I troubleshoot this?
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donblanco
CORRECTION - not swarm, OwnYourSwarm
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aaronpk
fix the source of the error, then go back to ownyourswarm and click "import" and it will try again
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aaronpk
it just disabled the account because it knows now that trying again won't make anything different happen
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[jgmac1106]
[Khurt_Williams] the portfolio view of photos one of the most requested features. Part of the reason I built my photo portfolio was @CathieLeBlanc and folks I met at summit who want portfolio view
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GWG
Lot going on while I was swimming
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bradenslen
Yes, a lot going on.
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donblanco
@aaronpk yeah, about that 'fix the source of the error' part.......................? I'd love to do that. If only I knew what the source was...
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bradenslen
I was going to ask about possible pitfalls of switching from Sempress to Independent Publisher but I think I'll saty with Sempress
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] yep. [chrisaldrich] noticed that SNAP posting to Facebook no longer works. Seems there is a more involved way that requires setting up via Facebook Native API.
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[Khurt_Williams]
I’ll have to find out what “Auth Error Account #2: Array ( [message] => Error validating access token: The user has not authorized application 315321612268423. [type] => OAuthException [code] => 190 [error_subcode] => 458 [fbtrace_id] => EzuNHL+qQI4 )” means.
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aaronpk
donblanco: I suspect it's the same bug in the micropub plugin that's been plaguing everyone
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donblanco
@aaronpk me: things don't work; devs: all our stuff is working, unless you use that WP plugin; me: yes, I'm using that WP plugin; devs: oh - Yeesh! Geeze. woo-hoo, that's gonna cost ya... LOL
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donblanco
it's like I'm stuck in a comedy bit
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aaronpk
well thankfully this micropub issue isn't related to any theme stuff
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aaronpk
I hope
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aaronpk
tho I guess it's wordpress so anything is possible
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donblanco
But yes, that's a good reminder. I'm not going to rage-quit because the webmentions and post-kinds and things all work, which is a big advancement from last year, when I *did* rage-quit lol
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donblanco
WordPress: cool things are easy - just install this plugin! Also WordPress: why do you have 17 plugins?
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aaronpk
lol so true
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donblanco
I actually have 17. 10 are directly IndieWeb enablers. The rest were to add or fix other things.
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donblanco
IndieAuth, IndieWeb, Microformats2, Micropub, Post Kinds, Safe Redirect Manager (recommended by another plugin), Semantic-Linkbacks, Syndication Links, Webmention, WebSub/PubSubHubbub
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donblanco
just 10
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donblanco
feels like everyone is staring...
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donblanco
Seems like the functionality of a lot of these could be combined, vs. just grouped
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aaronpk
yeah, semantic-linkbacks and webmention for sure
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aaronpk
probably indieauth and micropub, since it's unlikely (tho technically possible) you'd want one without the other
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aaronpk
I didn't know there was a microformats2 plugin, what does that do?
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sknebel
aaronpk: that's the plugin that tries to inject microformats for themes that don't have them
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[miklb]
it is meant as a last ditch effort to support mf2 in a non-mf2 theme
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aaronpk
oh gosh
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sknebel
and you know that exists, we talked about it before ;)
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[miklb]
this is what I was talking about in -dev
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aaronpk
I tend to not keep wordpress plugins loaded in my brain-ram
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[miklb]
I made notes almost 2 years ago about the failures of mf2 being what holds back WP from being “easy” 10 plugins or not.
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[miklb]
I became a user to understand the pain points, and have observed others, plus my knowledge of general users in the WP admin.
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sknebel
yeah. especially bridgy issues basically always are microformats problems
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donblanco
and I tried twentysixteen-indieweb first, but ran into some issues so stuck w/ 2017 + mf2 plugin
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aaronpk
I even subscribe to wordpress Atom feeds over microformats feeds when I follow people in my reader because the mf2 is always so inconsistent
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donblanco
and I've removed the Brid.gy plugin - low priority any way
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[miklb]
Gutenberg is going to monumentally change WordPress. If we can’t figure out the basics of theme support for mf2, then trying to solve the other problems is moot IMO
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donblanco
does the mf2 plugin work well across themes at this time?
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[miklb]
you simply can’t tell people “oh, you have to use one of these 2 themes or roll your own.”
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aaronpk
yeah personally I don't see how this is a sustainable situation
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[miklb]
donblanco more often than not, no.
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[jgmac1106]
No it does not
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donblanco
well, if it screws with brid.gy then maybe this explains why brid.gy could never see my very clear prominent instagram rel=me?
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[jgmac1106]
And sooo many moving parts, [miklb] is right. Hope you get somewhere with WP-rig folks
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[jgmac1106]
And gonna test Jetpack tonight but if that injects stuff that breaks mf2....
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[miklb]
One of my problems right now is it is difficult to eat my own dogfood because of the state of flux in Indieauth/micropub. I should probably roll those back to a point where I can use indieauth.com and keep working on tweaking markup
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[miklb]
and I want to be clear, I am not pointing at anyone on the state of things as I see them. It’s a community issue to decide if or how to resolve. I’m just someone who’s been in it for 1.5 years now, and a year doing IW stuff on jekyll before that.
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[jgmac1106]
And I have no idea how to tell people to update themes from GitHub, not sending anyone to command line
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[miklb]
there are plugins that allow you to install from GH, but that’s not an ideal situation either.
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[chrisaldrich]
donblanco, which site is yours?
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[miklb]
themes/plugins can also include code to do automatic updates from a GH repo.
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donblanco
WHAT THIS CMS NEEDS........is something like the Genesis Framework
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[jgmac1106]
Ooh that is something to think about... But yeah really down to two themes that work 80% of the time and each supported by one person
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[miklb]
that’s what I’ve been working towards. SLowly
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donblanco
[chrisaldrich]: glenn.thedixons.net
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[Khurt_Williams]
[jgmac1106] JetPack and mf2 breakage is theme dependent. I removed mf2 plugin because readers wanted when it broke it exposed the HTML. Web site visitors wanted to know what class=“u-in-reply-to” was all about. 🙂
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[miklb]
but if I don’t know exactly where the linchpin between core WP code and what current mf2 parsing needs, then I’m just throwing code out there. If I don’t understand what end users really want/need, I’m just guessing.
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[miklb]
I know feel I have a pretty good idea of the user needs. Now I just need to revisit the semantic markup issues.
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[chrisaldrich]
donblanco, thanks, that's what I thought. Still trying to keep five new screenames in chat matched with new sites/people who've popped up in the last few weeks.
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[miklb]
s/know/now/
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[chrisaldrich]
[jgmac1106] iirc some people had been using afragen's Github updater for syncing repos with WP: https://github.com/afragen/github-updater
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Loqi
[afragen] github-updater: This WP plugin will update GitHub, Bitbucket, GitLab, and Gitea hosted plugins and themes
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[miklb]
so yes, if I can get mf2 into wprig, a Gutenberg ready theme from LinkedIn folks, then that would be a good win.
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[miklb]
theme framework
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[chrisaldrich]
He's a solid WP programmer here in the southern California area... he's responsive on issues if you have problems or need help.
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donblanco
[miklb]: so wprig is a framework?
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Loqi
[wprig] wprig: A progressive theme development rig for WordPress.
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donblanco
when i used to work on sites w/ Genesis Framework, I always used CobaltApps Dynamik website builder and Extender - greatly simplified things, fully integrated. Something like that for IndieWeb functions would be killer!
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[miklb]
Gutenberg + customizer will render most of that stuff moot from my perspective.
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[miklb]
otherwise, would be better off forking WP
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[chrisaldrich]
[jgmac1106] In testing multiple themes etc, I've never had/seen any issues with JetPack causing collisions with mf2 at all. The only issues I've seen are that JetPack will sometimes inject content into the_content which can cause people to syndicate more than they intend (depending on what methods they use).
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[chrisaldrich]
That problem is more with how the individual theme is laid out and where JetPack is injecting its content.
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[jgmac1106]
But [Khurt_Williams] was using 2016 and from what we found it was putting in an rss link to his social feed
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donblanco
[miklb]: so wp5 will render wprig moot?
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[jgmac1106]
When I tried to recreate issue and installed Jetpack everything Bridgy Publish broke
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[miklb]
no, Gutenberg + customizer themes should render all of those page builder/3rd party customizers moot.
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[jgmac1106]
And that was without adding all the social share buttons... But if you have Jetpack installed just use that to syndicate
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[jgmac1106]
That is the goal, drag and drop blocks like the page builder and Wix and Weebly.
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[miklb]
Seems like the most impactful move someone could make is a new PR against WP core to update for mf2 and see if could get traction. Swing for fence and see if could at least get any incremental fixes. a 5.0 should allow for breaking changes like theme’s using css hooks.
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donblanco
[jgmac1106]: yeah, but JETPACK ugh
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[chrisaldrich]
[jgmac1106] I'm using 2016 and it doesn't put an rss link into my social feed.... I suspect he changed something a month or two back that's doing that, but without being able to see what's going on I'm not sure what's injecting that. I'm pretty sure it's not JetPack though.
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[jgmac1106]
[Khurt_Williams] I started my WP journey ready to walk away from WP forever and try Drupal or RoR... But everyone gets on boarded to web through WP
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[jgmac1106]
@donblanco don't use Jetpack... It's gross
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donblanco
[jgmac1106]: I was out of WP for awhile. I did Jekyll then Hugo then Hugo + GitHub Pages and then Bludit and Grav and now back to WP just to get Indieweb stuff working
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donblanco
[jgmac1106]: ++
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Loqi
jgmac1106 has 11 karma in this channel (39 overall)
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sknebel
[chrisaldrich] [jgmac1106] yeah, the theme doesn't have any code that would do that, and in the indieweb plugins there was at least nothing obvious... it might be some really weird filter interaction that wasn't intended (I went pretty deep into the WP menu rendering code, there's a bunch of potential spots therE), or I don't know. But impossible to tell just by reading code what actually goes one, would need direct access to
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sknebel
a system and ideally a level of debugging tooling not sure even exists
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[chrisaldrich]
I did see a pretty solid Drupal 7 fork last week at DrupalCamp called Backdrop. It was trying to move away from the corporate tool and be a bit more user friendly like WordPress.
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[chrisaldrich]
With a drupal module for indieweb in alpha, it should be pretty easy to port to Backdrop and make another user friendly IndieWeb CMS.
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[miklb]
won’t you be in teh same boat as WP with themes and mf2?
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[chrisaldrich]
I've spoken a few times with the Backdrop maintainer about IndieWeb tech, so she's at least aware and somewhat interested in adding the pieces, particularly if they can just port a module, though I suspect in their case they'd port it directly into their core product.
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[chrisaldrich]
If it's all put into core and has mf2 built in, then themes don't need to worry about it.
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[chrisaldrich]
I think that even if WP core simply had h-entry matched with hentry and h-feed properly matched with hfeed put into core, it would help things out a lot.
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[chrisaldrich]
since it's unlikely that any/many themes have these built in, it shouldn't cause too much backcompat issues if at all.
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aaronpk
would that help tho? I suspect that would end up with messy data again just like we have with the backcompat classes
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[chrisaldrich]
or more likely if there are issues, it would be with themes that were doing things wrong from the start anyway....
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[chrisaldrich]
aaronpk, possibly? I haven't dug into as much of the parsers and backcompat classes as others have.
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[miklb]
that’s what I’d like to get to the root of aaronpk
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aaronpk
I don't see how it's possible to use mf2 classes when the theme developer is not aware of it
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[chrisaldrich]
it would be nicer if WordPress could add the best semantic microformats to core and then have theme developers not touch any of it for theme use, but instead add their own classes for CSS, etc.
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aaronpk
yeah but theming is more than just adding css
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[miklb]
so no microformats in WP core than partial?
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aaronpk
they often add new html elements or move things around, so it's very likely that a theme developer would break the mf2 markup unless they are aware of it
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[chrisaldrich]
the problem is that unwary theme developers see classes in certain areas and use them as hooks for their CSS and any changes/updates later can potentially cause problems
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aaronpk
that's only one problem
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[miklb]
right, let’s assume for sake of argument we could get classes removed/changed, what gets removed changed?
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[asuh]
It would be interesting to see someone crawl the web for CSS files to see how common it is that people use the mf1 hooks for styling
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[chrisaldrich]
Automattic's own annualy 2014 theme styles using hentry, so I'll bet it's pretty common.
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[miklb]
it was only recently changed in underscores, so anything built with that framework prior to this year.
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[miklb]
potentially
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sknebel
two things I reguarly see as problematic when pouring over markup on WP sites: a) h-entry on body, so every dodgy class in a sidebar element, menu etc leaks (e.g. the problem above: if the menu were outside the h-entry, nothing would care that there's a u-url where there shouldn't be one) b) plugins adding stuff to the post body, and unless the theme catches it(?) it gets appended to the microformats content, so you get "see
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sknebel
also on..." or sharing buttons in the content and syndciated out
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[asuh]
If the default themes are used, without much modification, that is an easy version update push on those themes, right?
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[miklb]
what is easy
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "easy" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "easy is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[asuh]
miklb point updates to default WP themes to upgrade to mf2 once introduced into core
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sknebel
I'm not under the impression WP core would update already published default themes in that way, risking that someone did customize it and break something
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[miklb]
they push changes, and have always encouraged child themes for the core themes.
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[miklb]
but again, take out the argument for whether or not can add a “breaking” style change. What actually needs to be changed in core today.
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dougbeal
Is there a blog post or something that goes into the philosophy of the core themes? Is twentyseventeen the sucessor to twentysixteen?
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[miklb]
to understand the philosophy of core themes would mean to understand how Matt thinks. And I say that with sincerity and respect.
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[chrisaldrich]
[dougbeal] from my understanding the core themes are reference standards of a sort, but each year they pick a site type and build something that should be considered best in class. So 2014 was a "magazine theme", 2015 and 2016 were "blogging" themes, and 2017 is geared more towards being a "business theme".
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[chrisaldrich]
Even with that, they still attempt to make them flexible enough to be used for almost anything.
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[chrisaldrich]
I suspect we'd know a lot more about Gutenberg and it's effect if there were a 2018 theme (or now a 2019) theme that leveraged the best of what Gutenberg will have to offer.
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donblanco
so could hentry be included in the_loop? and in default page formats?
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[chrisaldrich]
One issue I've seen with h-entry at the core level is that many themes add it to the entire body, which means that posts can have everything and the kitchen sink thrown into them, including additional details from JetPack et al, Though I suspect that parsers may be able to easily handle this issue?
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sknebel
as mentioned above, that regularly is part of problems since it propagates issues into the post
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donblanco
so could mf2 *ever* be embedded so far into core that a plugin or theme could never override it?
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sknebel
oh, another thing to the list above: c) a bunch of hooks/filters appear to be used in multiple contexts and would be useful to inject markup, but only in one of these contexts. e.g. theres a hook for a commenter name/url which one of the plugin uses to add mf2 to those, but that means that suddenly the "recent comments" widget also contains those properties
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sknebel
I don't really know enough about the architecture of WP to answer what specifically needs to happen to fix those 3, but they're what 'veI seen as problems
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[dougbeal]
Once indieweb intetrated with Gutenberg, would you be able to see live previews of the mf2 markup?
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[dougbeal]
Could you do a syndication preview for Twitter?
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[miklb]
theoretically yes
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[miklb]
because the blocks would all be rendered right into the browser in admin as it supposed to appear on the front end. That was my experience testing wprig
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[dougbeal]
Do you think it might be worth forking wprig and mf2 it?
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[miklb]
I’ve opened an issue to see if they would be interested in a PR. I’ve worked a little with the project on using https with gulp, and have been following the development. It is top notch and I’d prefer to work with them than just fork. But if they don’t show interest, then I’ll just adopt some of the features into what I’ve been working on.
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[miklb]
but that brings me back to I’m not exactly sure anymore what really needs to done. I know I’ve hacked my own theme to be ok mf2 wise, but what are the actual WP core issues that need to be overcome to add the deeper mf2.
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[miklb]
That’s a question for me, and the greater community. I’m just talking out loud.
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[asuh]
I’d guess legacy support, backwards compatibility
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[miklb]
I’m not all interested in back compat in core for a html class.
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[miklb]
not for a 5.0 release. That is my argument going in. If there is a compromise to be made, I’d cross that bridge when the time came.
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[asuh]
There’s no ideal way to introduce mf2 to WP core. Seems sensible to allow both mf1 and mf2 simultaneously for a long period before removing legacy mf1
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[miklb]
I believe I have strong potential allies in core if I/we can present a rock solid case and PR.
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[miklb]
but if there isn’t a consensus on what needs to be fixed, then I wouldn’t call it in.
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[miklb]
yes, I’ve read that.
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[miklb]
is it still accurate is my question. What has changed in the 4 years since that ticket was opened, and the 2 years since it was closed.
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[miklb]
I’m honestly not sure.
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[jgmac1106]
@sknebel thanks for perspective on the three big problems. At least we can explain why the recent comment widget makes things go haywire
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dougbeal
Where is a good place to read up on WP 5.0? Any google search seems to have been SEO'd to death :(
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[jgmac1106]
[dougbeal] [johnjohnston] has been writing a lot about testing Gutenberg... Or bookmaking folks testing it
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donblanco
The entire interwebs has been SEO'd to death, 95% by clickbait adfarms :(
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sknebel
[Khurt_Williams] now your page markup seems fine, did you tweak anything new?
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dougbeal
Who is johnjohnston
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[jgmac1106]
Must not have a chat name set up
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dougbeal
What is Gutenberg
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Loqi
Gutenberg is a project to make a new editor for WordPress pages and posts https://indieweb.org/Gutenberg
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Loqi
ok, I added "http://johnjohnston.info/blog/tag/gutenberg/" to a brand new "See Also" section of /Gutenberg https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=50381&oldid=47661
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[jgmac1106]
do folks think the h entry body issue could be addressed in the two themes under active development? Is that too dependent on other plugins as well a user might install?
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[miklb]
I believe it is using a hack on the body and post class filter
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[jgmac1106]
[miklb] I have also wondered if using the custom post types is more sustainable than taxonomies, but that's the limit of my knowledge
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[jgmac1106]
But that seems more sustainable, most post kinds being used are experimental anyways
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[miklb]
that shouldn’t have any bearing, and is always going to be plugin material
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[jgmac1106]
Okay didn't know if you could just make a custom post type that has the correct mf2... GWG podcast on this was helpful
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[jgmac1106]
Especially after how I saw how Snopes injects claim/review using custom form fields
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[jgmac1106]
If they can do it with LD can it be done in mf2 or does that only work bc core is compliant?
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[miklb]
custom post type as a term in WordPress was an admittedly bad choice of terminology for what it actually represents. But one could just as easy create CPT for note, photo, etc and have the custom fields specific to that type.
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[jgmac1106]
And for theme developers would that be a more common approach to correctly add mf2?
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[jgmac1106]
Someone just build theme ready for Gutenberg or better yet collaborate on it and charge for it.
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[jgmac1106]
When you say custom post type was bad choice of words what do you mean? In my mind it would allow you to add a new post type to the default menu
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[miklb]
they used the term “post type” based on the db table post. But it really can be any object with it’s own meta that can be globally queried. Where and how it appears in the admin is flexible.
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[miklb]
as such, where and how it appears in the front end is flexible.
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[jgmac1106]
Please feel free to ignore my n00b questions but always wanted to know how things are done
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[jgmac1106]
In your opinion what would be the best way to get hentry right on article, note, reply, photo, bookmark, possibly quote but that is still listed as experimental I think
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[jgmac1106]
I so wonder if automatic is trying to make a social play with Gutenberg... If you have Jetpack and Gravatar installed WordPress.com seems to follow you everywhere and it forces you to sign in when commenting on WordPress.com blogs
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[miklb]
I believe the only play with Gutenberg is to provide a better user experience for the majority of people who publish content with WordPress.
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bradenslen
The Wordpress.com Reader is very nice, powerful timeline.
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[jgmac1106]
Thx @bradenslen and [miklb] I haven't tried it but set every beginner class up on WordPress.com... Teaching was is url, don't even dare indieweb there
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[jgmac1106]
But building the reader experience always pain for me
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[jgmac1106]
Currently it's slack channels and rss bots, but I thought if everybody has same reader...
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[jgmac1106]
I mean I know every reader it's rss... But see above comment learning url... Supporting one is nice, ways liked the feeds @cogdog built
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[jgmac1106]
Reading up on [chrisaldrich] post on feeds from my domain
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[jgmac1106]
So [miklb] wouldn't mind a social ply by a company I trust
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[jgmac1106]
I don't like Jetpack as it seems to be what breaks numerous things for me, just easier to not use it
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[johnjohnston]
how do I do that? Just arrived in in slack…
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sknebel
[johnjohnston]: the chat names thing? add yourself on the page "chat-names" in the wiki, then people can have Loqi look you up (and/or find you there themselves)
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sknebel
what is chat-names?
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Loqi
Chat names is a list of chat regulars sorted by nickname, with their website and usual timezone(s) https://indieweb.org/chat-names
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donblanco
added himself to IndieWeb chat names :)
[jgmac1106], [snarfed] and [miklb] joined the channel
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GWG
Sorry I missed all the fun
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[miklb]
tosses GWG some fun
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GWG
I saw some of it.
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[chrisaldrich]
we need to spend some time later today to make sure it all gets documented or laid out in the wiki for future action...
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GWG
miklb, are you still having trouble with IndieAuth and Micropub
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[jgmac1106]
[chrisaldrich] I am just gonna use plotagon and turn it into a text based podcast...
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[miklb]
I honestly haven’t tested much, been trying to look at photo kind templates for my theme, and otherwise spinning in circles
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[miklb]
I know Omnibear still doesn’t work. I did test that in last day or so.
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GWG
I was going to ask if I asked you to test certain things...
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[miklb]
I do not recall you asking, but even if you did, feel free to ask again.
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[miklb]
I’m eager to help where I can.
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GWG
I didn't, I was going to now
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GWG
I am close to the new version being ready for Micropub and I am going to add some new error checks to Indieauth