#indieweb 2018-02-22

2018-02-22 UTC
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tantek more about frustration with giant silos vs. ease of use of going indieweb
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tantek both have been changing and eventually they'll cross and everything will tip
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tantek looks for acquisition post examples
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tantek finds a 2010 example
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tantek I'm kinda blown away by rhiaro's thorough purchasing behavior documentation
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GWG What is an acquisition?
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Loqi An acquisition within the IndieWeb is a type of post that enumerates purchases, gifts, donations, (stolen?!), and found things potentially with additional information like photos, descriptions, specifications, price paid, date/time acquired, location acquired from, and condition https://indieweb.org/acquisition
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GWG What is a wish?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wish" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "wish is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG What is a wishlist?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wishlist" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "wishlist is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG A wish is a post indicating an acquisition or purchase you wish to make.
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Loqi ok
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willnorris We haven't really advertised it yet, but thought folks might be interested to know that Google's Open Source Community Guidelines (https://opensource.google.com/conduct/) is based on the IndieWeb CoC
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tantek whoa willnorris !
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tantek welcome back!
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willnorris hi :) thanks
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tantek and thanks for linking to / crediting the indieweb CoC!
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tantek that's pretty huge
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GWG willnorris: Long time no speak.
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GWG Nice to see you
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tantek willnorris: got plans June 25-27? :D
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willnorris uh, don't think so
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tantek What is IndieWeb Summit?
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Loqi IndieWeb Summit 2018 is June 26 through June 27, 2018 in Portland, Oregon; the eighth annual gathering for independent web creators of all kinds, graphic artists, designers, UX engineers, coders, hackers, to share ideas, create & improve their personal websites, and build upon each others creations https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb_Summit
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tantek this year officially part of OSBridge!
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GWG I have to see if I can make that work.
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willnorris wow, that's great
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GWG What is there to do at OSBridge?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "there to do at OSBridge" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "there to do at OSBridge is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[kevinmarks] This is fun https://twitter.com/dsenneff/status/965393299614859265
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@dsenneff Made an SVG animated login avatar, with the help of some trigonometry & GSAP. #animation #UX #gsap https://codepen.io/dsenneff/pen/QajVxO https://twitter.com/dsenneff/status/965393299614859265/video/1 (twitter.com/_/status/965393299614859265)
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tantek there to do at OSBridge is [[Open_Source_Bridge#Why]]
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Loqi ok
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tantek What is there to do at OSBridge?
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Loqi Open Source Bridge (AKA OSBridge) is an annual open source conference in Portland Oregon where many indieweb talks have been given over the years, and the event which served as an anchor for the immediately adjacent very first IndieWebCamp in 2011 https://indieweb.org/there_to_do_at_OSBridge
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tantek there you go GWG
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aaronpk We will make a bigger announcement about it once osbridge announces their schedule!
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tantek aaronpk: want to add to https://indieweb.org/Open_Source_Bridge#Past ?
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chrisaldrich GWG: What say, for the next vHWC we put together a demo/instructions for building a microblog to replace one's Twitter dependence? but that allows POSSE and backfeed from Twitter itself?
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GWG chrisaldrich: Using WordPress or otherwise?
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chrisaldrich I'd suggest using WP unless you want to do it in something else???
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chrisaldrich Gotta run to get to HWC... Back online in a few....
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aaronpk tantek: done
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GWG chrisaldrich: I wouldn't. I'm good at WordPress
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tantek \o/
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tantek what is donating
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "donating" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "donating is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek what is donation
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Loqi donation is a rare type of post, often just a note, indicating an act of giving items or money to another person, or organization https://indieweb.org/donation
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tantek donating is /donation
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is purging
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "purging" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "purging is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek ok we can leave that one
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KartikPrabhu Loqi: cancel last tanteking
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KartikPrabhu oh well, I tried
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aaronpk looks forward to the podcast summary of this week's wiki edits since I have not been paying attention
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tantek good times and we still have two days left
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tantek is looking forward to seeing if schmarty changes the format a bunch for this 2nd year of TWITIWAE
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aaronpk maybe some changes to the newsletter itself are in order?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "This Monday I got GitHub issue comments working from my website with @Falcon (prev 2 posts) reply to GH issue on my site -> Bridgy -> POSSE to GitHub Still figuring out some POSSE details (images,links) but looking good! Thanks @schnarfed! #indieweb" on 2018-02-21 http://tantek.com/2018/052/t2/monday-github-issue-comments-indieweb
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@t hosting Homebrew Website Club SF tonight 17:30 @MozSF! (yes in like ~5 min!) https://indieweb.org/events/2018-02-21-homebrew-website-club New this week: * Summit 2018 is a go! * POSSEing to @GitHub * New @GoDaddy post by @benwerd https://www.godaddy.com/garage/indie-websites-can-set-you-free-from-the-constraints-of-social-media/ http://tantek.com/t4t33 (twitter.com/_/status/966484633377533952)
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mblaney hi indieweb, does anyone have an opinion on adding a "remember me" style option to web sign-in?
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aaronpk I don't think there's anything particularly unique to web sign-in regarding that feature
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mblaney cool I was thinking people might have expectations that they shouldn't stay logged in when providing their address, with even just the option to being bad.
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aaronpk personally I think the notion of "stay logged in" is aging, since so much of our interactions with devices is no longer tied to a specific "session". we dip in and out of our devices frequently now.
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[tantek] Mblaney in typical browsers there should be no work there since they all do forms autosuggest now and especially for a URL input field they’re likely to keep autosuggesting url
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[tantek] * your url
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aaronpk conditional on the security requirements of the thing you're logging in to, I would expect to stay logged in to a site as long as I haven't clicked a log out link
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aaronpk my browser is super confused by URL input fields on all my indieweb apps because of how many different URLs I put in there for testing
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KartikPrabhu mine too. On some sites I have 20 or so brwoser suggested URLs
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mblaney tantek: "remember me" options store a cookie that keeps you logged in after you close the page.
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mblaney in my case, a logged in user is redirected to a different page, which would be unavailable when logged out.
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aaronpk i've never seen a "remember me" checkbox work the way I expect it to
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mblaney aaronpk: you wouldn't usually expect to stay logged in after you close a page would you? unless you've explicitly checked a box?
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aaronpk I expect to stay logged in unless I explicitly click a log out button
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aaronpk and most of the sites I use work that way. google, twitter, etc
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aaronpk and when I *do* click a "remember me" checkbox like on a bank website, it doesn't actually do anything and I have to log in from scratch again the next time I visit
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aaronpk *sometimes* I've seen the "remember me" checkbox not actually keep me logged in, but prefill the username on the bank website the next time I come back
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aaronpk but I still have to enter my password
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aaronpk "close a page" is a very 1990s way of thinking about logging out of a website. for example what does that mean on a mobile phone? how often do you actually close a tab on mobile? more likely you switch apps. is that "closed"?
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mblaney twitter has a remember me checkbox, but I just tried it and it doesn't forget my login when unchecked :-/
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aaronpk exactly :D
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mblaney "closing a page" is meant to remove a browser session... didn't realize it was 90's fashion! :-P
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mblaney the idea was if you're on a public computer and you close a page, someone can't go to the same site later and find you still logged in.
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mblaney maybe public computers left us in the 90's too...
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aaronpk I think the browsers switched to deleting those cookies only if the whole browser is closed, not just the one tab
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mblaney yes I just tried again with twitter, and closing the tab and then the browser forgot the login.
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aaronpk I don't know what the equivalent on mobile is
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aaronpk there isn't really the concept of actually quitting an app on iOS
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mblaney yeah it really is only a consideration for shared devices.
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aaronpk a mobile device can be a shared device too tho
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aaronpk even in the first world ;-)
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mblaney I guess I mean shared without trust then... you probably only had your mobile to someone when you don't mind that you're logged in to a number of services.
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aaronpk household ipad?
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mblaney makes for good facebook pranks :-)
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mblaney anyway now I'm wondering if I need the option at all... just remember every login like you're saying, if that's the norm now.
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aaronpk I just got a tweet from someone who was annoyed by how often they were automatically logged out of a website I run. but I dont get logged out of that site, so I was confused. it turns out that person normally quits their browser at the end of the day but I never do. so they were "always having to log in again, ugh"
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mblaney yes I get the same complaints, and my response is always to say just tick the remember me checkbox when they log in...
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aaronpk I think my faith in "remember me" checkboxes has been lost at this point
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aaronpk there also seem to be two different implementations of it when it does work. "remember me" meaning "stay logged in" vs "remember my username but still ask for my password"
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aaronpk so basically I have no idea what to expect when I see that box now
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mblaney browsers seemed to have sorted out the second meaning
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aaronpk "sorted out"?
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mblaney like was said earlier, browsers remember so many logins, and usually display the right one so you can just click a button.
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aaronpk oh, that hasnt really been my experience, but I realize I may be an exception
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[asteres] [chrisaldrich] where are ya? I'm at the library
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mblaney well thanks for the feedback, I think I'm going to move with the times and just keep people logged in.
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aaronpk I think that's the best option. as long as there is an easy-to-find "log out" link and it actually forgets everything, I think that will surprise people the lease
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aaronpk t
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[chrisaldrich] 4th floor asher
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tantek me and j12t and stacey here at HWC SF
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GWG Hi, j12t and stacey
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tantek discussing silos like casinos
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tantek "the house always wins" -> "the silo always wins"
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tantek also found: https://medium.com/@ChrisIlluk/facebook-is-a-beautiful-slot-machine-a-secret-hack-to-help-you-quit-your-addiction-9bbf0afca557
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tantek and https://www.dailydot.com/debug/facebook-dopamine-addiction/
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KartikPrabhu so likes are like slot machines
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tantek and https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/jan/23/never-get-high-on-your-own-supply-why-social-media-bosses-dont-use-social-media
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[scottgruber] Working on my site tonight for Homebrew club. https://scottgruber.me/blog/2018-02-21-homebrew-website-club-feb-21
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Loqi [Scott Gruber] Homebrew Website Club, Feb 21
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tantek about to try posting my first issue to GitHub via Bridgy Publish
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tantek woohoo! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/794
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Loqi [tantek] #794 Bridgy Publish to GitHub: support images and hyperlinks
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Loqi 😊
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tantek worked with existing code (so apparently I did implement it correctly on Monday, just didn't get around to testing it til today)
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radicaledward101 What are those extra characters in Loqi's second message? My chat client just renders them as gibberish
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tantek radicaledward101: emoji - see https://chat.indieweb.org/2018-02-22/1519268969590400 in your browser
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Loqi [Loqi] 😊
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radicaledward101 huh I'll have to check to see if there's a way to get a better font in KVIrc
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tantek what is KVIrc?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "KVIrc" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "KVIrc is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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radicaledward101 It's an irc client
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radicaledward101 http://www.kvirc.net/
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tantek KVIrc is http://www.kvirc.net/ an [[IRC]] client.
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Loqi ok
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@t This Monday I also got posting issues on my site working but didn’t get to try it til just now (http://tantek.com/b/4t31) post issue on my site -> Bridgy -> POSSE to GitHub Bridgy rocks! #indieweb #ownyourissues See https://indieweb.org/issue for more http://tantek.com/t4t34 (twitter.com/_/status/966519332066004992)
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tantek snarfed++ love it when stuff just works
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Loqi snarfed has 297 karma in this channel (352 overall)
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tantek wrapped up here in SF
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tantek photo uploaded
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tantek heading to grab a bite - 21A
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Recap of Los Angeles Area Homebrew Website Club February 21, 2018" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-02-22 http://boffosocko.com/2018/02/21/recap-of-los-angeles-area-homebrew-website-club-february-21-2018/
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@ChrisAldrich Recap of Los Angeles Area Homebrew Website Club February 21, 2018 #indieweb http://boffosocko.com/2018/02/21/recap-of-los-angeles-area-homebrew-website-club-february-21-2018/ (twitter.com/_/status/966561586860060672)
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@Johannes_Ernst Another post on #IndieWeb on the GoDaddy site, this time by my friend Ben Werdmüller. https://www.godaddy.com/garage/indie-websites-can-set-you-free-from-the-constraints-of-social-media/ (twitter.com/_/status/966565381614665728)
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sknebel good morning indieweb!
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snarfed hi sknebel!
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@kevinmarks “transparent, open-source development and uncompromising data protection.…It’s more important to me that we focus on these core ideals than to go off and chase technological fads that are not going to survive into the future.”@brianacton http://nzzl.us/Iujqq7b #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/966575236190621698)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "“transparent, open-source development and uncompromising data protection.…It’s more important to me that we focus on these core ideals than to go off and chase technological" by Kevin Marks on 2018-02-22 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/transparent-open-source-development-and-uncompromising-data-protectionits-more-important-to
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@scott_gruber I just about got webmentions working on my site. Some success sending a mention from my page to a friend’s page. To do: display my icon and test receiving a webmention #IndieWeb http://bit.ly/2CbmKZB to @ChrisAldrich’s page http://bit.ly/2ENjVPO (twitter.com/_/status/966586059399217153)
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb
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sknebel Good morning Zegnat!
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Zegnat Can the weekend please start? I have some IndieWeb stuff to finish...
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Zegnat Interesting discussion on the remember me checkboxes. I always expeect them to mean that my session will be kept between quiting the browser and restarting it.
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sknebel Zegnat: you could start the weekend :P
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Zegnat I don't think the people I am in contact with would like my emails suddenly returning out of office before Thursday noon
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sknebel might be
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[kevinmarks] I didn't realise that browsers lost cookies when you quit them.
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[kevinmarks] Only if you quit them cleanly?
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[kevinmarks] Re casinos, I remember being shocked by how invasive they were back in 2002 http://epeus.blogspot.co.uk/2002/10/gary-loveman-harrahs-coo.html
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cweiske depends on the cookie settings. you can configure cookies to be deleted when the browser is closed.
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[kevinmarks] I'm like Aaron, I never quit the browser
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sknebel sites can also set cookie lifetime to "until end of session", or to a fixed time
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mblaney Zegnat (or anyone else) would you mind if your session was kept when there isn't a checkbox? like aaronpk was saying?
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Zegnat mblaney, I am ambivilant, as my browser is set to discard all cookies on quit anyway. But I think it makes sense for shared environments that quiting a browser completely should wipe sessions.
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Zegnat Then again, that might just be an outdated way of looking at it
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mblaney thanks yes that makes sense that the browser could deal with it.
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Zegnat According to Wikipedia, “browsers normally delete session cookies when the user closes the browser”. This matches my expectation. And in my mind, me being logged in affect my current browsing session and should not affect all future sessions as well. If I want to stay logged in *across sessions*, that’s what the checkbox is for.
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Zegnat Of course YMMV
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@cswordpress @GaryJ @coolfields @RianRietveld @heydonworks Hey while I'm at it, can we get an add/remove theme support for both schema data and microformats 2, so we can make a choice about which one we want a site to support? Microformats 2 is good for indieweb stuff, and would like to see Genesis child themes suitable for indieweb+ (twitter.com/_/status/966638190747676673)
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@clarenceb_oz Is Lanyrd dead? It's been in read-only mode for weeks. https://indieweb.org/site-deaths#Lanyrd (twitter.com/_/status/966644460506370048)
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[kevinmarks] wonders if I should add gmpg.org to site deaths
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aaronpk_ Oh yeah I also forgot about the "force quit" or crash state. Does that count as "the browser was closed"? Because I want my entire session resumed if the browser crashed.
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Zegnat aaronpk, good question. I would expect a crash restore to also restore session cookies, but I never actually tested.
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[tantek] Kevinmarks gmpg.org home page is fine
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[tantek] As are all the XFN spec URLs
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[tantek] If any of those broke, that would be worth alerting
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[kevinmarks] no they aren't
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[kevinmarks] https://gmpg.org/xfn/ is blank https://gmpg.org/xfn/11 is OK http://gmpg.org/xfn/intro is blank
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[kevinmarks] looks like internet archive crawls it 60 time s a day, so it's well backed up
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[eddie] https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-F9CJ8FLFJ/screen_shot_2018-02-22_at_11.16.18_am.png?pub_secret=3f1fd49b38&name=Screen Shot 2018-02-22 at 11.16.18 AM.png Well that was interesting. I got a twitter reply with a single emoji, so when it was backfed via bridgy, my site detected the reply with a single emoji and turned it into a reacji! lol a nail polish reacji of all things! 💅
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[eddie] haha that was a first
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Loqi nice
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[kevinmarks] nice when all the pieces line up like that
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[eddie] Yeah, especially when it’s unexpected 🙂
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[eddie] Do any auto-converting systems support RSS (podcasts) to HTML mf2?
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[kevinmarks] unmung.com
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[kevinmarks] top thingamajig
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[kevinmarks] it is done on the fly, but I could improve etags+caching if you are going to poll it.
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[kevinmarks] eg http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fpercolator.today%2Fpodcast.xml
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[eddie] ohhh, that’s awesome!
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[eddie] There is a new microcast that is only available via rss and I was hoping to get it into my reader, but a traditional podcast feed wouldn’t work. This is awesome!
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[eddie] Yeah, I would probably be polling it once a day
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[eddie] bookmarks unmung.com
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@nxD4n vs rel=me #indieauth #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/966720716518412288)
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[kevinmarks] once a day is fine, thta shouldn't hurt
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[kevinmarks] I should get unmung onto https
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Loqi yea!
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tantek Next meetups: Homebrew Website Club https://indieweb.org/events/2018-03-07-homebrew-website-club. Code of conduct: https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct, log https://chat.indieweb.org/today
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[miklb] what is a thread
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Loqi A reply chain (AKA reply thread) is a list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post https://indieweb.org/thread
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[miklb] what is a tweet storm
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Loqi tweetstorm is a series of tweets, each replying to the previous, often each numbered so the sequence is clear, as a method of expressing a longer series of related thoughts as a single thread on Twitter https://indieweb.org/tweet_storm
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[miklb] I tend to POSSE the original note & then PESOS the replies. I’m thinking about changing up how they’re presented by pulling my own replies into the main content area and removing them from the webmention/replies. Anyone done anything with this recently?
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snarfed interesting idea!
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[miklb] I don’t really do tweet storms or live tweeting much, but I often have a follow up thought or two.
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[miklb] and that’s been the easiest way for me to present all of the thoughts together on my site but still be a “thread” on Twitter.
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dgold [miklb]: the php Liveblog thing I was briefly involved in had basic tweetstorm support: https://github.com/nitinthewiz/TheLiveblog
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Loqi [nitinthewiz] TheLiveblog: A simple liveblog using PHP that posts to itself, withKnown, 10Centuries, micro.blog (because it has an RSS feed), and Twitter at the same time. Very rude, very hackable. Beware. http://liveblog.nitinkhanna.com
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[miklb] interesting. Like I said, I mostly just have follow thoughts to a note and will reply to the POSSE on Twitter. Works for me, not advocating it as a solution to anything.
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[miklb] But now I’m thinking about how I can pull those replies into better context of the original note and not look like blog comments as they do now.
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gRegorLove "Very rude"? Haha
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Loqi nice
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@msutherl I'll get started: https://scuttlebot.io/, http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Main_Page,, https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnunet, http://p2p-hackers.709552.n3.nabble.com/, https://indieweb.org, https://github.com/Rotonde (twitter.com/_/status/966758197045415938)
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[eddie] What is Alfred?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Alfred" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Alfred is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[eddie] what is alfred?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "alfred" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "alfred is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[eddie] alfred is a quick bar for macOS that allows you to create custom actions and shortcuts to open specific websites or trigger commands like a micropub request
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Loqi ok
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[eddie] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 298 karma in this channel (353 overall)
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[eddie] bridgy++
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Loqi bridgy has 55 karma in this channel (68 overall)
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[eddie] My first POSSE’d GitHub Reaction: https://github.com/microdotblog/issues/issues/74#heart-by-EdwardHinkle
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[eddie] (original post: https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/02/22/13/reply/)
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] ❤️
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@sl007 @wblau Thank you for thanking him. Please let's now listen on and let's make sure the web stays independent. The responsibility for big media is to create social networks and linked data tools and not just to feed / use it. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/966763921490284544)
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TatPaP Hey everyone in Indieweb land. How is your day going?
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KartikPrabhu hi TatPaP
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KartikPrabhu welcome
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TatPaP Thanks
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TatPaP What's new in the world of Indieweb? I was around a couple years ago when Known was the hot thing.
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j12t_ TatPaP: https://snarfed.org/1-million-webmentions
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] 1 Million Webmentions
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TatPaP Very cool
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TatPaP micro.blog and known still the easiest setups? For a non programmer..
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[cleverdevil] I wish there was an IndieWeb version of this - https://anchor.fm/features
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[eddie] Yeah, that is amazing
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[cleverdevil] I want exactly this tool with the ability to self-host.
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[eddie] What exactly in the app do you like? The recording/editing abilities? The group recording? Auto-distributing to Apple/Google?
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aaronpk there is a lot going on in that app
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[cleverdevil] So, I like the pitch. "The easiest way to make a podcast. Ever/"
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[cleverdevil] I'd love an app that I could use on my phone that would allow for easy podcast recording and editing, followed by publish, and then push-out to podcast directories like iTunes.
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aaronpk i've been using the app Ferrite which does a pretty great job of being a good mobile podcast editor
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[cleverdevil] Cool.
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[cleverdevil] I'm thinking about starting a podcast for work, and I will likely just use Anchor, tbh.
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[cleverdevil] The silo convenience is too strong!
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aaronpk it seems like not a huge stretch to offer a specialized micropub client that could accept audio exported from another app and publish to a podcast site
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[cleverdevil] Yeah.
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[cleverdevil] Also seems like microcasting would be a really good use case for [manton] over over Micro.blog.
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snarfed sounds like https://screech.schmarty.net/
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[cleverdevil] Yeah, for the publishing side.
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[cleverdevil] Would just be nice to have it all buttoned up in a nice, neat package.
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aaronpk i think the other big piece here is quickly getting a website and podcast feed running
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[cleverdevil] Indeed.
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aaronpk tbh i think fundamentally it's better if these tools are all separate, but they could all stand to be a bit easier in general
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[cleverdevil] I see the benefit of having the tools all separate, but it represents friction to me getting started.
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[cleverdevil] Odds are, I'll never create a podcast unless its convenient for me to do so.
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[manton] I’ve wanted to add audio recording and hosting to Micro.blog for a while. Podcasting should be easier while still letting you have your own domain.
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Loqi [manton]: snarfed left you a message on 2018-01-18 at 7:18pm UTC: hey HWC hosts, hope you're getting ready to join us and host a 1M webmentions party next wed! https://indieweb.org/Webm1m
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[cleverdevil] [manton] I would love to have a platform like Micro.blog for podcasting, perhaps with another app a-la Sunlit, which focuses purely on the podcasting use case.
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[cleverdevil] Especially if I can point my own domain at it.
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[cleverdevil] (I really like what [aaron_pk] has done with https://percolator.today)
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[cleverdevil] One thing to note: it appears you can export your audio from Anchor - https://support.anchor.fm/hc/en-us/articles/360000606392-Exporting-your-audio-from-Anchor
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[cleverdevil] So, I could possibly use it for recording/editing, and then just export and upload to my own site.
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[cleverdevil] I wonder if it does chapter markers.
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[cleverdevil] (Not too important for a microcast)
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