#indieweb 2024-03-10

2024-03-10 UTC
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Yeah, can definitely see positives and negatives. I really admire the way Bastian has run and managed the community forums for Kirby for example, Zach around 11ty too, but its not easy, and it requires a lot of dedication and devotion (like we have here). But, I can also see how realtime chat is off-putting/confusing too. Maybe there is some middle ground, or trial runs, or some means of testing new/different approaches.
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] the alternative to real time chat is to occasionally check http://chat.indieweb.org and skim it like you would any mailing list or "forum" except that our chat archives are nice and flat and don't require lots of annoying extra clicks in & out of forum topics or long email essays which are no one has time or attention for any more
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[tantek] If the use case is looking for information on a specific topic, that's literally what the search box on the wiki is for
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[snarfed] also for one way broadcast, the newsletter is a middle ground btw chat and wiki
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gRegor Maybe more intro to indieweb virtual events would be good. I know we have "Build a Website in an Hour" events, though I think those cater to people at least somewhat familiar with some type of website setup already.
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gRegor seeing faces, hearing voices might be more approachable than chat. Can also emphasize that being in the chat isn't a requirement to "be indieweb"
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gRegor And yeah, fully recognizing this also requires "someone" to step up to organize, not just handwaving. Though probably less effort than a moderation team. :)
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capjamesg Good morning, IndieWeb!
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capjamesg Happy Sunday!
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capjamesg [Paul_Robert_Ll] https://discourse.32bit.cafe/ is a good example of a forum starting up from scratch with a passionate team of moderators and making something that people like in the web.
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capjamesg I like gRegor's idea of more events, and I can make that happen online (if anyone has any ideas, let me know!). One thing I'd love is a session for writing only HTML and CSS; share tips, make something that you like.
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capjamesg On events, some people don't feel comfortable with the notion of online events (even participating with camera off, etc.). This would have been me a few years ago; being on a call is intimidating if suffer from anxiety, especially with a lot of new people in the room.
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capjamesg I think there is room to do more Carnival-esque events that are anchored in the community but asynchronous.
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capjamesg For example, that HTML/CSS idea could be a rotating set of themes of things you could make with the web. One month, image maps. Another month, website backgrounds. Another month, details/summary tags. Another, make a holiday theme (i.e. for Halloween).
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Loqi hey capjamesg: I don't mean to be a bother, but CSS seems like a better conversation for #indieweb-dev
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capjamesg Not this time, Loqi, since we're talking about events 😄
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capjamesg I would love to see a wider breadth of async events that we can run, as well as a few more online sync ones on specific themes. I'm happy to organise as people share ideas.
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capjamesg gRegor On "being indie web", in our discussion on this yesterday the consensus was that being indie web is all about wanting to take control of your data. Having a domain came up, too. To the extent we can make sure people don't feel anything is required beyond that to be on the indie web, the better; if people have that question in the first place, it means we can do a better job communicating.
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[jacky] this is something that's going to regularly come up and frankly, this is why I mentioned having the wiki be the gate for access (because it already creates a high enough barrier for folks trying to get involved - a domain name or something capable of signing into to the Wiki, not getting caught/flagged in #indieweb-meta because every visible action shows up there, the wiki being committed to disk also keeps a record of things)
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[jacky] the forum can be piped and moderated in the same way we do/did social media accounts or the wiki and work in the async way that is a bit more organized than checking (and hoping by scanning _every message_) the log and hoping a reply came through
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[jacky] three clicks (to the forum, to the topic area and to the thread itself) _is_ faster than scrolling up (could be long or short depending on activity) an archive - esp if you don't have the _exact_ message in mind
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[jacky] then again, Discord is very attractive for (younger) folks (esp in school and gaming, both not explicit parallels but there's also thriving dev communities) using the same
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[jacky] this is worth a whole blog post tbh but it'd feel like a waste if it ended there
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lazcorp I think there is definitely room for a forum
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lazcorp By which I mean an old school phpBB forum (never managed to get the hang of discord)
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[jacky] (doesn't consider Discord to be a forum tbh! I think the term got co-opted by a different class of app users to represent "topical chat rooms with threaded history" but they also didn't use Slack)
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capjamesg ++
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capjamesg On a side note, I made an image map with our notes from yesterday at IWC Brighton: https://jamesg.blog/brighton/
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lazcorp capjamesg++
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Loqi capjamesg has 44 karma in this channel over the last year (172 in all channels)
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lazcorp I have to get a couple of things done this morning, but I hope to get to IndieWebCamp for the afternoon
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] We’re live for day 2 of IndieWebCamp Brighton https://us06web.zoom.us/j/88557718651?pwd=Mmn3VQXFl4lwXaMPLEnOfLVDbtzK9u.1
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capjamesg Yayy!
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[Ana_R] capjamesg++
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Loqi capjamesg has 45 karma in this channel over the last year (173 in all channels)
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[Ana_R] love that image map linking to the notes!
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alexsirac just logged in to the livestream and that is some impressive production quality!!
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alexsirac and everyone looks nice :D
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yousefamar Hey folks! This is Yousef -- is this the right channel to be in for the event?
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procrastinalex since the two of us are here, we can make it the right channel 😁
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capjamesg alex_alexsirac_com_[d] Welcome!!!
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procrastinalex helloo! 😁
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procrastinalex it's me, the person who complains about not being part of a ✨ community ✨ but who also forgets we have an IRC server
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capjamesg alex_alexsirac_com_[d] You're part of the indie web community!
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[tantek] Ooh I see and hear indieweb hackers hacking! So cool!
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[tantek] capjamesg, [Paul_Robert_Ll] Loqi's nudge while imprecise is still appropriate, discussion of community events, e.g. for specific technologies, or different community tools, is more appropriate for #indieweb-meta. I should have posted my remarks about forums etc there (since I don't plan to host a forum on my own domain 😆 )
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[tantek] Hello from PDT! (We just switched to DST)
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GWG [tantek]: Is that why you are up?
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[Jeremy_Keith] Quick question: what's a good online tool for manually sending a single webmention i.e. "Here's a target, here's a source, go!"
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procrastinalex Hello tantek! Welcome to the 2 blessed weeks of having one less hour of time difference with Europe!
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GWG 3 weeks actually
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procrastinalex …it's still hideously early for you though
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procrastinalex ohhhh
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procrastinalex 3 weeks! amazing.
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GWG March 31
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GWG Really messes up my meetings at work
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procrastinalex messes up my meetings but also allows me to finish my workday before nighttime, so fully worth it from my side :)
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GWG Someone in my office came to me and asked if I was free at ten on Thursday, and I said no because for the next 3 weeks, my 9 is at 10
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procrastinalex entirely valid
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GWG Anyway...off topic, so... we're here ..
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GWG Anyone planning any interesting projects for today?
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[tantek] What is mentiontech?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mentiontech" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "mentiontech is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] Wat
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[tantek] What is mention.tech?
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Loqi mention.tech is a service that has forms to send a webmention, ping Internet Archive to save a page, and send webmentions for all links on a page https://indieweb.org/mention.tech
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[tantek] [Jeremy_Keith] ^
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[tantek] mentiontech is / href="http://mention.tech" target="_blank">http://mention.tech
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Loqi ok
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GWG And is there an etherpad to see what they are?
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[tantek] Did that work or did Slack screw it up with autolinking?
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[KevinMarks] Mention.tech is an ugly site because I mainly built it to test the webmention spec, but it does work for sending webmentions. There is a caveat as it will show a red cross until the mention is validated, so wait a bit (until you see an http result code). I should fix this, but it is built using the older python 2 appengine model and tools, so doing so is a lot of yakshaving.
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] it may not be pretty but it's been the most reliable of all the "send a webmention" online tools. I have found problems with both http://webmention.app and telegraph because they ignore links outside the content property of a post
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GWG Trying to think of a good simple project for today
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[KevinMarks] It's also a little odd as it both acts as a webmention hosting service and passes through webmentions. So if you use it, it will do the full webmention check itself, but also send webmentions through to endpoints it finds.
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[Jeremy_Keith] [tantek] That worked—thank you!
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[tantek] [Jeremy_Keith] full disclosure (since I think that kind of thing helps people feel less self-conscious), I have been using http://mention.tech to manually send webmentions and syndicate to Masto etc (via Bridgy) myself ever since my past publishing UI "broke" because it had a legacy Twitter login thing that broke which I haven't had time to fix
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[tantek] You may share that with folks as an example of it's ok to do things manually and use others's tools and still be "indieweb"
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[tantek] What is manual until it hurts?
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Loqi manual until it hurts is an IndieWeb development practice of resisting automating something until you have manually done it enough times to really understand it, and know that it is worth doing and automating https://indieweb.org/manual_until_it_hurts
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[tantek] Maybe we need a variant of that of something returning from (semi-)automated to manual, and that being ok too!
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[Jeremy_Keith] [tantek] Oh, this is just for testing somebody's site here at Indie Web Camp (I made a test post linking to their site),
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procrastinalex [tantek] yeah like removing a cast on a broken bone when you realize it can be used again, to keep the « pain » metaphor
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[tantek] Oof procrastinalex perhaps that too, of course hopefully folks are not metaphorically breaking their bones here!
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[tantek] Or maybe they were metaphorically injured in social media silos and we're helping them heal to eventually regain & restrengthen use of their own limbs again
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[tantek] Lull in the conversation, the hacking must be getting serious
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procrastinalex haha I got way too caught into what i was writing (and finished my blog post, so it wasn't lost)
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procrastinalex ooor they never had a broken bone in the first place and the social media silos were the cast
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[tantek] !!! yes
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procrastinalex but if it takes a longer time to explain the metaphor than to write the rest, it's probably not the best metaphor :p
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[tantek] all metaphors start with some explanation, eventually they become understood in context
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procrastinalex good point
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procrastinalex maybe i'm too pessimistic!
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[jeremycherfas] I thought I might have had time to work on a little something, but I’d rather have a walk and focus on other people’s goodies in the demos. See y’all then.
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procrastinalex enjoy the walk :(
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procrastinalex [edit] enjoy the walk :)
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[jeremycherfas] Both are appropriate. Awful weather, and good to get outside and breathe a little.
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[tantek] [Jeremy_Keith]++ for defining "…that's the IndieWeb" (independent of plumbing)
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Loqi [Jeremy_Keith] has 1 karma over the last year
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procrastinalex ana's blog is so gorgeous
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Adding notes about the demos here https://etherpad.indieweb.org/brighton2024-projects
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Thanks to [capjamesg]
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[KevinMarks] What time are demos?
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procrastinalex they're happening now
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procrastinalex can't find the link of the call
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procrastinalex https://us06web.zoom.us/j/88557718651?pwd=Mmn3VQXFl4lwXaMPLEnOfLVDbtzK9u.1
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capjamesg Happy to help!
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] capjamesg, how can we tell the difference between projects people planned and what actually got built and demo'd?
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[tantek] do people's plans get "deleted" when they demo?!? 👀
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GWG Got to go.
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[tantek] procrastinalex++ lol leave it to an experienced Wikipedia editor to quickly spot errors in a blog post 😂
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Loqi procrastinalex has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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procrastinalex i just *have* to correct everything :D
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[tantek] procrastinalex wait til you see my "demo" 😂
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procrastinalex btw in chat you posted
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procrastinalex q+ to remote demo once folks are done with in-person demos!
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procrastinalex what does q+ mean here?
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aaronpk W3C chat convention bleeding over to indieweb 😅
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[tantek] procrasinalex "q+" = command to the Zakim chatbot to add you to the discussion queue, and "q+ to something" will list "something" as the topic that you've queued to talk about
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procrastinalex ahhh ok thank you!
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[jeremycherfas] [gRegorLove]++ for archiving
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Loqi [gRegorLove] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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GWG I've started the process of setting up what I call POSSE to mailing list
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll]++ thanks for the remote participation opportunity at IndieWebCamp Brighton! Had a great time in the one session yesterday and today's hackday and demos. Really appreciate it, it helped reduce the FOMO 😂 also obviously thanks for the 360deg camera and Zoom setup [jkphl]++
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[tantek] GWG that's in the wiki!
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[tantek] https://indieweb.org/email_list#POSSE_to_an_email_list
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[tantek] hey why no karma Loqi
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[tantek] jkphl++
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Loqi jkphl has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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[Al_Abut] And this is from someone that’s not exactly a wallflower 😉
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GWG [tantek]: I'm debating when I should use it
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[Al_Abut] There’s a good chance that worries about fragmenting the community is premature optimization. A more likely outcome for any new community effort is nobody showing up or it not being actively maintained. So if there’s a seed of people from the Brighton camp that are feeling pumped up to try something new, I say capture that momentum and try it out. If it turns out not to be a good fit, that’s ok, it’s an easily reversible decision.
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[Al_Abut] Experimentation over deliberation.
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[tantek] [Al_Abut] sometimes yeah. There's a trade-off there in steering new folks towards something that has shown to have a poor track record in the past, then new folks feeling discouraged by something not working out and leaving / losing them
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[tantek] if experienced community folks want to experiment great!
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[tantek] however IMO it's not actually welcoming (even though it may hypothetically appear to be) to foist the labor/risk of experimenting onto new people
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[Al_Abut] I’d be interested to hear more about your past experiences with forums?
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[tantek] better to redirect momentum from new folks in directions where they have a greater chance of success, so they feel a sense of accomplishment and encouragement
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[tantek] [Al_Abut] the web is littered with abandoned forums, I mean I thought that was obvious?
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[Al_Abut] (To be clear, I’m not advocating for or against forums as a solution, I’m just identifying/relating with the problems)
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[tantek] typically they're started by one person as a passion project, who then either runs out of time to moderate it well, or doesn't care to, and eventually it dwindles (or becomes dominated by only the folks who will put up with whatever lowest common denominator is allowed, driving out others)
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[Al_Abut] Yeah, I can see that. I like your proposal to see if any one’ll step up to moderate. Getting that house in order before seeing if there’s an audience for it
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[tantek] at best in such cases the "original" set of positive interested folks move on to something else, often something hosted by a silo (e.g. there was a mass migration from phpBB forums to various Facebook Groups in the 2000s and 2010s)
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[tantek] and now most folks have left those for other places
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[Al_Abut] I mean, in the Keep It Simple school of thought, the pro argument for the chats is the same as the Follow Where The Audience Already Is philosophy - the chat is buzzing and actively maintained. So I get that.
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[tantek] [Al_Abut] modtax is a real thing, and the folks who "just want someone to do it for them" are either ignoring that or minimizing it
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[Al_Abut] I’m just thinking through some of the issues from the #indienewbies session in San Diego. That’s partly why I haven’t blogged a recap - I can’t think of a good solution and don’t want to just complain.
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[tantek] anyway, speaking of momentum and topics for channels, *this* channel is for things you/we want to do on your/our personal sites. for community tools like chat etc. , let's go back to #indieweb-meta (this is to be more welcoming to the folks who really just want to talk/work on their personal site, and are not interested in "community admin" matters)
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[tantek] but here to talk about blogging recaps!
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[tantek] and blogging challenges!
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GWG [tantek]: That is posse to someone else's list...this is more subscribe to my site via email.
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[tantek] GWG, ah that's documented in /email then
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[tantek] [Al_Abut] I also haven't blogged a recap of IWC SD! All I was able to do was blog my "what I got done on hackday" post: https://tantek.com/2023/351/t1/indiewebcamp-san-diego
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] at the first ever #IndieWebCamp San Diego, documented a bunch of discussions and content in new and updated wiki pages on https://indieweb.org/ and updated my home page static events listing. #IndieWeb wiki pages created, from small stubs to longer ...
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GWG i know, I have to design the emails
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[Al_Abut] @tantek Oh! Now I don’t feel so bad. I just loved [aciccarello]’s writeup so much and definitely feel the lag on my end to add to the conversation, but I guess some of these things are evergreen topics that deserve long considered thought cycles.
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[tantek] [Al_Abut] evergreen topic: the growing list of blog post drafts 😂
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[tantek] IWC Brighton participants! Especially first-time, make sure to schedule some deliberate self-care calm & easy social time for the possible/likely post-camp-funtimes lull / downtime that inevitably hits a day or two afterwards. Take care of yourselves! And of course stay in touch here to tap in to community inspo & motivations 🙂
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jonnybarnes How’s IWC Brighton been?
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[tantek] It was amazing, and that was just from a remote participant perspective! Looked like the in-person folks had a blast
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GWG If you subscribed to a feed of my website via email, what would you want? Just the articles? I just remember last time the check-ins annoyed some people
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aaronpk i would assume it is just articles
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[tantek] GWG, another option is people may want weekly digests. I feel a lot of email list subscribers like weekly digests rather than one email per post
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GWG I may experiment with different options
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[tantek] and that way you could aggregate whatever kinds of posts you want and they wouldn't annoy people with lots of little posts
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GWG Maybe I should use the format for the weekly Indieweb newsletter
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[KevinMarks] Every time we have done Brighton I'm impressed with the local web community there
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starrwulfe GWG I like digests where an email with 5+ articles shows up every week.
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] perhaps should consider Brighton for IWS 2025
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[contact898] yeah, the only times when I choose an email over RSS is weekly or monthly digests that link to several articles with just a couple of lines to summarize them (and tell me if I should click)
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GWG So I should explore digest code, hmmm..
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starrwulfe moments away from a new post type debut!
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capjamesg starrwulfe[d] I’m excited to see what you make!
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starrwulfe Here you go: I give you the "Throwback" post type:
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starrwulfe https://starrwulfe.xyz/2024/03/throwback-post-1/
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IWDiscord <s​tarrwulfe>
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[tantek] oooh
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[tantek] starrwulfe++ add yourself: https://indieweb.org/throwback#IndieWeb_Examples
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Loqi starrwulfe has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (14 in all channels)
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starrwulfe roger roger
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[Murray] Thanks all for a fantastic weekend! Nice to properly meet some folk in person, and lots to think about 🙂
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[Murray] [qubyte]++ [Paul_Robert_Ll]++
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Loqi [qubyte] has 2 karma over the last year
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Loqi [Paul_Robert_Ll] has 10 karma in this channel over the last year (46 in all channels)
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capjamesg [Murray] it was great to meet you finally!
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capjamesg Same with so many others!
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capjamesg My Taylor Swift lyric idea is now working!
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capjamesg I had my code in the wrong place 😂
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[Murray] Nice! 😄
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[Murray] Great to meet you too!