#indieweb 2025-03-26

2025-03-26 UTC
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btrem Been out in the garden all afternoon, just catching up. carrvo I agree, many news sites are unproductive. I'd go so far as to say /counter-/productive. All the more reason to foster independent news as an alternative to corporate news. In the same vein, I'd rather foster independent websites as an alternative to corporate silos.
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btrem That's why I bristled at the notion that the article in question is IndieWeb-ish. IndieWeb is not "let's stay away from the web to avoid the silos"; it's let's build/nurture an independent web to avoid the silos. That's how I see it, at any rate.
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[tantek] btrem, I agree with you that IndieWeb is obviously not "let's stay away from the web"
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[tantek] however, nothing in stpeter's post says "stay away from web" — not sure where you got that from, feels like a strawman?
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[tantek] the post says, for example: "Instead of skimming the surfaces of things that people in power think I should care about, I've been trying to dig down into the depths of what truly matters: love, friendship, community, art, science, wisdom, and the long-term projects I'm working on."
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[tantek] no reference to web. more about the sources stpeter is choosing to pay attention to. ignoring "things that people in power think I should care about", and instead digging down into "love, friendship, community" is very indieweb aligned, as in following your friends, lovers, community's sites
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[tantek] "and the long-term projects I'm working on" -> directly aligned with principles 3 & 4 of Make what you need, and use what you make
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[tantek] ^ this is why this an IndieWeb values & principles aligned article. I challenge you to quote from the article to demonstrate otherwise.
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btrem [tantek]: not a strawman argument. I was making an analogy. He says the solution to poisonous news sources is to avoid the news. I think that's wrong, for the reason that I mentioned. Namely, that the mass media is, more or less by definition, corporate media. The solution is to make or support alternative, independent, news media.
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btrem By analogy, the solution to corporate web silos is not to avoid the web. It's to make or support independent websites.
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btrem Take the quote that you used: "Instead of skimming the surfaces of things that people in power think I should care about, I've been trying to dig down into the depths of what truly matters: love, friendship, community, art, science, wisdom, and the long-term projects I'm working on."
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[tantek] that's quite a stretch to extrapolate from "news bad" to "web bad". my point is, by directly interpreting his words, you get a very IndieWeb-aligned perspective. no need for circuitous multi-steps analogies
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btrem Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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[tantek] a more direct intepretation of "things that people in power think I should care about" would be "algorithmic feeds bad"
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[tantek] as in people in power shoving crap at me is bad
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[tantek] that's also very indieweb-aligned
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btrem How about this?: "Instead of skimming the surfaces of things that people in power think I should care about," I'll pay attention to independent news sites.
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btrem To my mind, /that/ is indieweb aligned.
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[tantek] that's an ice cream flavor argument. e.g. the author saying "I don't like vanilla, so I'm going to focus on chocolate" and you're saying "why does he hate strawberry?"
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btrem I think *that's* as stretch.
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btrem But as I said, to each his own.
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[tantek] that's exactly the form of argument you're making
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[tantek] you don't like the absence of what you'd like to see
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btrem It most certainly is not.
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[tantek] absence of what you'd like to see is not a valid criticism for throwing out everything else the author is saying
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btrem The author is pretty explicit about avoiding the news.
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btrem I don't avoid the news.
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[tantek] sure, that's your preference
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btrem Like I said, to each his own.
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[tantek] avoiding *centralized* news is quite indieweb on its face. as is focusing on "love, friendship, community"
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[tantek] you're basically making a "Not all news [men]." argument which is also flawed
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btrem If he wants to avoid the news, that's his business. But an indieweb approach to not liking the news is to foster independent news.
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btrem I don't understand you're last point.
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[tantek] in response to statements like "men suck." the common retort is "not all men." which is demonstrably a flawed response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NotAllMen
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btrem Not familiar with the argument.
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[tantek] your response to his "news suck" by saying essentially "not all news!" is similarly flawed
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[tantek] which is why I cited Wikipedia so you can read-up on it
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btrem Well I'll get to my homework later if time permits.
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btrem I think you've mischaracterized my argument. I also think this is probably getting tedious for the community. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
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[tantek] Right, similarly I'm saying you're mischaracterizing the blog post
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[tantek] That's the whole problem
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btrem !! You're mischaracterizing my argument intentionally because (you think) I'm mischaracterizing his post?
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[tantek] No I'm saying your argument is actually flawed, but if you choose to interpret it as a mischaracterization, then I'm saying consider that you're doing the same thing to stpeter's post.
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btrem [tantek] really, I think we should let this go. You don't agree with my take on his article. And I don't agree with your take. Can we move on?
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[dave] @btrem I don’t think you can move on because the indie web elite have decided you’re wrong and now you have to face the wrath of that situation.
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[dave] Like honestly, tantek is more or less in charge and his opinion is the only correct one, so please just take it on the chin so we can move on.
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[schmarty] [dave] no need for that kind of "help". Participants seem to have moved on.
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[schmarty] I'm taking inspiration from some mentions ive seen of folks closing down their AWS accounts and sorting through some old projects stuffed in S3 buckets. Whewwwwew
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[schmarty] "Easy enough" web-accessible storage, as much as you care to use, sure was a revelation back then
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Xander Do you know why?
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Xander [schmarty]:
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Xander > I'm taking inspiration from some mentions ive seen of folks closing down their AWS accounts and sorting through some old projects stuffed in S3 buckets. Whewwwwew
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Xander Is it perchance related to the "buy european" movement?
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Xander Been seeing these posts on Lemmy
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Xander https://feddit.nl/post/30990865
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Xander https://lemmy.ca/post/41233054
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Xander So just wondering if it's related
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capjamesg[d] Can anyone recommend a Europe-based domain registrar with which they have personal experience?
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[schmarty] Xander: I can only speak for myself, but I no longer want to rely on (and pay money to) AWS.
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carrvo Why can't it be partially aligned in that he is refocusing on the things that make him happy; and partially disaligned in that it discourages the free-flow of news? Why does there have to be segregation? I think it is quite a leap of logic from "bad news" to *either* "anti-web" *or* "independent news".
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carrvo I think both of you would agree on independent news, but that the author of the post *would not*. Personally it sounds like his approach builds a wall between himself and outside opinions (because he is restricting himself to a limited number of outlets that likely pre-aligns with his existing views) much in the same way that silos and algorithms/AI do. I would argue that it is an older form of developing segregating views that pre-da
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carrvo Whatever his meaning of "a few judiciously chosen analyses of longer-term trends" is where his biases will develop...
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Xander [schmarty]: very valid
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[KevinMarks] He may mean sources like https://www.lrb.co.uk/
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club Europe/London is starting soon! Join us! https://events.indieweb.org/9tW1J9cWiziA
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capjamesg[d] HWC starts in five minutes. Join us! ^^
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Zegnat capjamesg[d]: both me and my workplace have domains via https://www.loopia.com/domainnames/ (re domain registrar)
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Zegnat I find it hard to really recommend registrars, because when they do their work well, they just keep your domain running. So most I can say is that I never had any issues :P
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capjamesg[d] It is something so important that personal recommendations are especially meaningful.
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Zegnat I can confidently say that I have never had any issues with them. I can also say the same goes for my employer, though that is probably less meaningful
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[tantek] some considerations: (1) how easy it is to file a trouble ticket? (can you do it from mobile?), (2) what is the response time to filing a ticket, acknowledgment, action, interaction, resolution, (3) what "absences" of support are there? E.g. do they only respond M-F? only 9-17:00 in some time zone? not on holidays?
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[tantek] obvious requirement: 2FA by TOTP or equivalent, not SMS
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[tantek] there are plenty of criteria to use to assess domain registrars
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[tantek] I can say this from having had to deal with quite a few issues over the years
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Zegnat I actually login with my eID, so it is passwordless and no SMS or legacy channels involved. But that also means I cannot comment on the password flow. Like many Swedish companies, they still have a public phone number to reach support. I have only used their support chat, and that has been fast.
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Zegnat But those are some really good metrics to think about [tantek]!
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Zegnat And yeah, because they do classic business support, they are only open 8-19 M-F and 11-15 S-S.
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Zegnat IIRC Spotify shut down their support in Sweden because they were not allowed to do shifts to offer 24/7. That is not really a thing here.
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Zegnat I do sometimes wonder how people will react to that, if there really will be a more buy-european move. E.g. Loopia support works, but they list very clearly on their websites that other departments will be closed from 12:00 to 13:00. You are going to get EU countries that really will shut down for things like lunch. Probably a good thing if you are an employee, but going to look weird compared to other places?
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Lars-Christian Interesting reflections @Zegnat
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Lars-Christian Hadn't thought about that at all. I'm all for moving back to "human" support hours, but it feels like the genie's out of that box to some extent.
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Zegnat It has been years since I worked somewhere that required we offer 24/7 external support, so I am not sure what expectations are.
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Zegnat I think there were examples of websites that closed on sundays, but can’t find the one I am thinking of right now. Did find this one: https://freakonomics.com/2012/08/this-website-only-open-during-business-hours/
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carrvo My apologies, previously I have mixed up the term "segregating" with "polarizing", the latter can cause the former.
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