ajordanwith an index.html and an index.json, the HTML file is your regular homepage and the JSON file is your AP actor profile with inbox and outbox pointing at e.g. ap.yourname.blog
ajordanit should be relatively inexpensive to just have some process that gets triggered when it updates that spits out JSON into the right place on disk
DenSchubajordan: i wanted to make it easier for people to understand and help them building a good understanding. but it's clear that there is more than one truth :)
Loqisandro: tantek left you a message 4 days, 13 hours ago: re: https://twitter.com/sandhawke/status/967206428405633024 - all your contributions and guidance were greatly valued in the Social Web WG. You have been consistently great about bridging and supporting multiple perspectives & approaches, bringing people closer. So thank you.
hellekinSo I said I'm a former Lorea developer, maintainer for GNU consensus that aims to coordinate the federated web and the P2P systems, now working on an EU consortium called PUBLIC that I presented at FOSDEM, which aims to promote free software as a public digital infrastructure in Europe, and respond to H2020-ICT-28 call on "Future Hyper-connected Sociality".
ajordan_... some interesting reasons to maybe want these things. I'm bringing it up because our notion of who has authority over stuff in AP is very loose
drEquivalentI'm just a (pretty mediocre) sysadmin, believer in everything decentralized and free and open, that thinks that he knows what he's doing, and sometimes thinks he has good ideas. That's the best way I can describe myself right now.
ajordan_... I'm not trying to push this as a "we gotta do it now", just as a "if you run into these things, maybe it's a good idea to look at this spec"
ajordan_... one nice thing with LD capabilities is that the mechanism we have ties in nicely with LD signatures, so you don't have to provide a separate HTTP header component
ajordan_... for example someone in the community credentials group is using this for blockchain, so you can see everything public but you can't do anything unless you have the private key
cwebber2evanpro: I think there's a language of privilege that comes with open technologies of "you just put your name out there and put it out there" and that ignores some of the privacy and security needs of people different walks of life... we want to be respectful of that
saranixunfortunately, with the proliferation of facial recognition, it is impossible to be pseudonymous. People just do a search and find your real social media page these days...
ajordan_... if I was to speculate my guess would be that it's because they have different market segments that they address with those different brands
hellekinWon't q because I didn't fixed sound, but a suggestion to look at Attribute-Based Credentials to use zero-knowledge connection to find matches.
ajordan_... if people are closeted, or have other privacy concerns, it seems like there's a real risk of allowing kind of infinite spread and searchability of these profiles compared with a traditional social media profile
ajordan_... I think that for someone say in NYC even having the plainest "I'm a 34 year old man looking to meet other men" would not feel like a big exposure and putting yourself at risk
saranixalso, let's not forget that profile criterea may not be the best way to find a romantic match. How often are we surprised to find we fall in love with someone who has attributes we would've thought were deal-breakers?
ajordan_... I'm not sure what a minimal amount of data that's enough to make a dating decision (I'd like to pursue this, find out more about this person) is without exposing you
ajordan_cwebber2: sometimes we talk about the upsides and downsides of the fact that in a decentralized system people can set up as many profiles as they want
ajordan_... it might actually be that you make multiple profiles and the profile you give initially... say you have some kind of oracle that connects you
ajordan_... Evan I don't think the minimal info approach is really gonna work... I mean, profiles that don't have somebody's face clearly shown... on some really sex-only you can get away with just a body shot but with relationships you have to show your face and now with face-recognition tech your face is just as good as your name
ajordan_... I don't think we can do much about active countermeasures, it's really hard to tell if someone's hitting thousands of decentralized servers
ajordan_sandro: this kind of comes back to the first and last of Evan's questions... if you block somebody you need to stop them from just making another account
ajordan_... one of the reasons someone getting on an lgbtq specific service or whatever is that there's a certain level of assurance anyone else who's on there is on there for the same reason
saranixthey don't have to be silos though. it can be a web of seekers and matchmaking nodes. People submit to multiple matchmakers which handle the profile screening and selective reveal
ajordan_... if I get a message from someone or a match offer, that I would have some automated way of finding out if the person is abusive or a spammer
ajordan_... directly to respond to Evan's suggestion for making claims about another user, if you're going to look at that in a system the verifiable credentials data model might be a good thing to look at
ajordan_... I think that more worrying than having nobody on it would be to get people on it who feel they're having their security or privacy violated
ajordan_melody: I think your instinct that it's worse to have something where people whose security and privacy is being violated rather than something no one will use...
ajordan_... there's going to need to be some really robust ways of dealing with incoming messages from people who just absolutely do not fit your criteria who will message you anyway
hellekinevanpro: GANDI.net is considering implementing a decentralized marketplace using blockchain somehow. I guess that matches what cwebber2 mentioned about ld-ocap and DECODE's ABC research as well. Maybe something to invent there.
hellekinno cwebber2 it's all part of PUBLIC and the project has not started yet, so it's internal knowledge. Let me see if I can find something about Dyne's research...
ajordancwebber2: so you're going to post minutes when that w3.org link updates, right? otherwise I am happy to do it but it'll have to wait until later today
ajordanI think it's because I'm used to the main times I do evanpro++ being in the WG, when he chairs. and then whoever I would nick++ next would be the scribe
hellekinanyway it was nice to see all those nicknames ;) I'll be here more often I guess, especially as PUBLIC is going to require a bit of your attention in order to succeed ;o)
ajordanFWIW my position on blockchain, which I recognize lots of people disagree with, is that I have zero interest unless whatever scheme is proposed addresses climate change
cwebber2ajordan: it's a good concern... different blockchains have different characteristics, and I agree that the level of energy expended on proof of work + consensus can be a real concern
hellekinajordan: FYI one of the most prominent blockchain EU project, IOTA, made a presentation at an IoT EU meeting. After the presentation they were asked what technology they use. Their response was enlightening: "Well, we started with a blockchain, but we moved on to a Markov Chain Monte Carlo as it is more efficient."
tantekajordan, in general, there's no self-dogfooding in that space (aside from the climate abusing mining ops) so I'm treating it all as handwavy hype
hellekinblockchain and big data share the illusion that computers can record everything, and the more they record, the more 'is known'. But Giuseppe Longo, the mathematician, published a very interesting article in 2016 showing that the more data you have the more it resembles no data at all since spurious correlations appear.
saranixmy view on blockchains is generally when someone says: blockchains enable xyz, the truth is, blockchains enable xyz where you don't trust the government, but if you take that out of the equation, new functionality can be engineered based on existing meatspace government/civic trust to achieve the same effect if you do in fact trust your government (which most people, for the most part do, for better or worse)
tantekand there's plenty of easily discoverable counter-evidence, e.g. search for any/all blockchain tweets and find zero instances of any of that being selfdogfooded
tantek"Tulipogenesis / We are currently in a crypto mania phase , What is a mania without some tulips. This is tulipcoin, to remind us of what irrational exuberance can do to our logic and thinking."
tantekstandardizing something decentralized on a hash function leaves you open to the vulnerability of a broken (eventually cracked my someone) hash function and thus a "critical vulnerability"
ajordanI mean if you read the whole thing basically what was going on was IOTA invented their own hash function that wasn't cryptographically sound, and then did such a poor job handling a researcher's responsible disclosure that it blew up
ajordanI mean TLS gets attacked all the time but in that case you're not relying on something *forever*, TLS can be patched because connections are ephemeral
melodyi continue to have 1,000,000+ things to say on the dating topic, but not sure if people were interested in continuing to discuss that async here or if we are just buried in blockchain nightmares now 😛
tantekajordan: TBH it's not that interesting, except in the sociology of hype bubbles, that's the problem. it's also a good way to filter-out tech proposals / projects / threads / discussions.
melodyyeah and there's a few other things i haven't mentioned yet -- like if you look at how OKCupid handles search, there's a setting on your profile if you have selected some of the more "advanced" gender options, for choosing whether to be grouped in results for men, women, both(?) or neither, partially for compatibility reasons -- but if the search was crawler based you would need to make sure engines respected that kind of profile hinting or else you
melodyand the gender vocabulary is not at all fixed and neither is the categorization scheme so you run into a risk of building software that really needs to semantically understand a vocabulary that is in pretty radical flux socially right now
melodythe sex/gender distinction is one which is....debatable, one of the areas of social flux....but OKCupid is still just asking for gender -- the reason for the "group me with" options is so that if somebody adds a nonbinary gender but also considers themselves to be a man/woman, they can ensure that they show up in results for people looking for men/women and not just specifically "genderfluid" or "bigender" or "nonbinary", as a for-instance, and for
melodyit does have some flaws and it makes more than a small handful of potential category errors (for example, "transgender" is a potentially standalone gender option, which isn't really common in the current social justice vocabulary) but it does so for maximum expressiveness -- being flexible was more important than being correct
saranixnot really debatable, linguistically and scientifically they are separate concepts. If society wants to start mashing them together for political reasons, then that's a different story.
melodyscience is not apolitical, linguistically they've been conflated for a long time and that is super duper varied across languages, cultures, and time periods, but this isn't really the time or place for that argument
melodyand the fact that we could have a lengthy discussion about whether that statement is true or not and both sides would have merit means i'm probably right on the debatability ;)
melodyat the very least -- we live in a world where it's plausible that two federated dating platforms may make different choices about whether or not they wish to support such a distinction for "purely political" reasons
saranixit's funny because in this space, it wouldn't actually be that surprising if there was a platform out there that was super-specialized and has only a handful of users that then forks into 2 platforms because of a silly issue like that
melodyso there will need to be some way to resolve this -- search and criteria creation will need to manage to accommodate potentially irreconcilable vocabularies for pretty centrally important profile fields
tantekFWIW I fought for (based on examples gathered and plenty of others' arguments) being able to specify gender and sex fairly independently in vCard4: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6350#section-6.2.7 - which downstream uses (e.g. h-card in microformats / indieweb, and vCard vocab in AS2) should "automatically" get, as long as they don't screw it up by misguided "optimizing"
melodytantek: so how to define sex "biologically" is another open question, depending on who you ask it's chromosomal, reproductive, hormonal, phenotypical (using primary or secondary sex characteristics) or some conglomeration of the above -- so you could still end up with semantically irreconcilable fields with compatible value sets
melodyof course, and i definitely do NOT want to undermine the value of that, being able to self-report more accurately is especially good for that use case -- for dating it's just got added complications
melody if for example a trans woman reasonably self-reports as F and finds herself on a platform that (wittingly or unwittingly) makes her discoverable to users on a platform for trans-exclusionary folks, where they have a different notion of what "biological sex" means, that could open her up to harassment or danger when communication goes out-of-band if that miscommunication isn't surfaced beforehand somehow
tantekthe hope with vcard4 was/is that at least some (more?) sites/networks would start with vCard4's expressiveness as a baseline to help mitigate some of the likelihood of some such problems
melodyit's not a terrible compromise, i'm just raising the risks of treating it as sufficient when applied to this particular use case where questions like this become more central than tertiary
melodyi think ultimately some of these differences are so fundamentally irreconcilable and use a vocabulary that is so overloaded that disambiguating them safely won't be possible, but that will mean a search model that respects federation boundaries so that instances can choose not to interop with nodes that have incompatible values
melodyi also think detecting a mutual match *before* allowing private messaging is probably going to be necessary (at least on a lot of these platforms) to mitigate harassment and unwanted messages due to different interaction patterns though it's possible some networks could get by without that
melodythere are a few dating apps that have tried to piggyback off of your existing social graph one way or another -- i think coffee meets bagel used to be one of them but they underwent a radical pivot at some point
melodybut yeah basically i think the most viable iteration of this probably involves clusters of mostly-closed networks of nodes that all only really interoperate with one another and search needs to be implemented within that sort of an environment, with most-to-all data being non-public without authorization -- maybe individual users could choose for some of their data to be more broadly discoverable to some kind of more general crawler? doing this well
melodyis it possible that federated.dating/user could disambiguate between and http-redirect to federated.dating/user/public-profile or federated.dating/user/network-profile or federated.dating/user/instance-profile or federated.dating/user/match-profile based on soooome kind of authorization cues provided by users and the platform?
saranixthere of course will be those people that prefer to do everything super-public too... like the people who record every moment of their life and publish it and stuff would certainly have no issue about a public dating profile, they might even thrive on it
saranixmelody: hubzilla supports multiple profiles out-of-the-box ... actually I think the creator had dating in mind when he did it. Also good for job hunting, etc.
melodyyeah, i just think that if you have any aspirations of supporting heterosexual matchmaking on a decentralized dating platform based on activitypub you are going to need to solve a few problems around making sure women have any reason at all to opt in and won't be chased away by an absolute deluge of unwanted messages -- LGBTQ+ use cases and needs are wildly different but sometimes served by similar tech, and the polyamory crowd has a whole other
melodypile of needs that are absolutely not met anywhere at present, and another different set for kink/fet folks, but even if you only want to serve the biggest most obvious use case first, your MVP to set yourself up for success isn't that minimal
melodylike, initially i guess your problem will be getting any opt-in at all and making anyone talk to each other, but if you hit any level of success your next problem will be women not just staging a mass exodus if you can't mitigate this (which is even worse and more common on platforms that don't require a mutual match to message) http://straightwhiteboystexting.org/ (though i suppose this really surfaces that problem mentioned earlier about
melodyin the UI i guess you could toss things into separate inboxes based on whether or not you've liked somebody, and try to get profiles for people who have sent messages out in front of users when they're browsing so that they can pass judgment on them, and move into a more visible inbox.....but idk, my mind continues to race along but i need to take a break
melodynote about the above before i do: if standardized inboxes for this could be supported via protocol extensions that would be better than requiring the client to do that work, otherwise somebody changing clients might suddenly find themselves burried under a mountain of messages that their normal client had been sensibly protecting them from
martijnvdvencsarven, I am still not sure if my microformats property for pronouns is at its best yet. But it is really hard to codify language. I think I did the right thing by taking a step back and not try to “fix” it for all systems ever. Though I would be interested to see if anyone has been doing something like it in activitypub.
martijnvdvenI find the (decentralised) (online) dating question to be an interesting one. But haven’t really looked into it. There is some really rough code on my homepage that lets people “swipe right” though.
csarvenmartijnvdven: Looking at the mf/pronoun again... Took a little look around to familiarise myself because I'm not at all very familiar with the stuff. Correct me if I've misunderstood something: I think going with u-pronoun works well-enough in that you point to a dictionary (a "controlled" set) for possible values. I don't know if p-pronoun is useful or even meaningful in that it'd allow you to do something similar but with free text. Is there a practice
martijnvdvenI couldn’t find any consumers for the old way mf pronouns were done, and as far as I know there are no consumers for my way of doing it. Actually had a really hard time finding *any* machine consumers.
martijnvdvenTempted to say machine consumers should go with the first found pronoun that they know how to use. Assume the publisher put their pronouns in order of preference (as I do)
martijnvdvenIt is really hard to please machine consumers though. E.g. what if I only publish my profile in Swedish? An English consumer could still pick out things like my name and address, but it probably cannot handle my Swedish pronoun anyway unless a list of translations exists.
martijnvdven(Picking Swedish here as an example as it has a somewhat established non-gendered pronoun “hen”, which non of the other languages I speak offer.)
martijnvdvenYou can’t be making it easier for parsers by having completely different numbers (and names/properties) for every language you want to support
martijnvdvenThat’s also a good question I guess. I just want people to know my pronouns when they write to or about me. Therefore I decided that links to wiktionary would be a great way to help people along.
martijnvdvenYeah, I am not a linguist either. But I also do not expect people who visit my profile to be linguists. Yet another reason why I like to point at a dictionary for my pronouns rather than assume something like “he/him” would be understood.
martijnvdven11pm here and closing IRC for the night, but if anyone has comments on my thought process for pronouns (https://wiki.zegnat.net/microformats/pronoun) or any of the other data I currently markup about myself, do mention me and I will get back on it :)
csarvenI think I asked for some health data years ago on some checkup... perhaps related to the ligament getting pulled on my ankle. they gave me some CD with giant bitmaps of xrays and some other weird data which i had no way of opening.
saranix ajordan: yes you can do something like that, it just always requires a historesis vs other paths when done dynamically
Loqi sandro: tantek left you a message 4 days, 13 hours ago: re: https://twitter.com/sandhawke/status/967206428405633024 - all your contributions and guidance were greatly valued in the Social Web WG. You have been consistently great about bridging and supporting multiple perspectives & approaches, bringing people closer. So thank you.
sandro Tweeting about today's meeting: https://twitter.com/sandhawke/status/968870346848899073
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/02/28-social-irc
ajordan_ ... Evan I don't think the minimal info approach is really gonna work... I mean, profiles that don't have somebody's face clearly shown... on some really sex-only you can get away with just a body shot but with relationships you have to show your face and now with face-recognition tech your face is just as good as your name
cwebber2 fwiw, here's the Verifiable Credentials Data Model https://w3c.github.io/vc-data-model/
tantek ajordan, OTOH, this kind of stunt I can appreciate: https://tulipcoins.github.io/ (no I don't own any)
csarven tantek I'm impressed by the amount of work/detail Marijn put in his profile eg link to the definition of u-pronoun used in source: http://wiki.zegnat.net/microformats/pronoun , and explanation of "it is complicated" https://vanderven.se/martijn/gender/